OT: Deadliest Warrior

[Raellus]

Tonight, here in the U.S., on Spike, the series Deadliest Warrior is airing an episode entitled Green Beret vs. Spetznaz.

It's a pretty silly show, but strangely entertaining. Check it out, if you have the means.

Cheers.

[TiggerCCW UK]

Don't think they show it in the UK. Whats the idea behind it - I'm assuming they haven't actually set some Green Beret's off against Spetsnaz? Is it a historical comparison?

[kato13]

I think it is an extension of what the history channel did with certain computer models of historical conflicts. They take the standard Nerd or Barroom discussion "Who would win in a fight between X and Y" enter some stats into a computer and then simulate the outcome (I believe in live action). Of course they need filler so they give a dramatized video version of the history, weapons and tactics of both parties.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadliest_Warrior

Here are the matchups so far
* 3.1 Episode 1: Apache vs Gladiator
* 3.2 Episode 2: Viking vs Samurai
* 3.3 Episode 3: Spartan vs Ninja
* 3.4 Episode 4: Pirate vs Knight
* 3.5 Episode 5: Yakuza vs Mafia
* 3.6 Episode 6: Green Beret vs Spetsnaz
* 3.7 Episode 7: Shaolin Monk vs Māori
* 3.8 Episode 8: William Wallace vs Shaka Zulu
* 3.9 Episode 9: IRA vs Taliban

I did not think I would have much interest in watching until I saw the "Shaolin Monk vs Māori" and then I imagined myself being totally on one side of that argument. Might be intrigued enough to watch that one.

The IRA/Taliban one seems to me to be in bad taste.

[TiggerCCW UK]

Have to agree there, the IRA/Taliban one wouldn't be something I'd watch. Unless of course they were really going to stick Provies and Taliban in a room and make them go at each other for real - that could be interesting.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by kato13

I did not think I would have much interest in watching until I saw the "Shaolin Monk vs Māori" and then I imagined myself being totally on one side of that argument. Might be intrigued enough to watch that one.

Interesting. Having some knowledge of martial arts my logical brain would back the monks but being a New Zealander (and having known many Maori) my heart would back the Maori. Also, once the Maori were introduced to firearms they embraced the the idea enthusiastically. What did the program conclude?

[kato13]

I don't think it has aired yet.

I expected the Maori would have some sentimental backers here. I must state that my backing of the monks is also a bit sentimental. I used to jokingly chastize my mom for not abandoning me at the door or a Shao-lin temple when I was young (like Caine from Kung-Fu). Her respone was always "trust me if I could have found one you would be there"

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by kato13

I don't think it has aired yet.

I expected the Maori would have some sentimental backers here. I must state that my backing of the monks is also a bit sentimental. I used to jokingly chastize my mom for not abandoning me at the door or a Shao-lin temple when I was young. Her respone was always "trust me if I could have found one you would be there"

lol

[Canadian Army]

I saw the Green Beret vs. Spetznaz episode, the Spetsnaz was Overall Winner, but what was cool is that they compared their weapons:

Beretta Pistol vs. Makarov Pistol
Mossberg Shotgun vs. Saiga Shotgun
M4A1 Carbine vs. AK74 Carbine
M24 Rifle vs. Dragunov Rifle
E-Tool vs. Ballistic Knife
M67 Grenade vs. RGD-5 Grenade

You got to see what these weapons would do to actual person, in exit wound, blunt force trauma, and broken bones. During the E-Tool demonstration, the Green Beret team “sliced and dice” the dummy’s stomach and head to pieces.

Also I think Episode 9: IRA vs Taliban will be interesting to see.

[TiggerCCW UK]

Originally Posted by Canadian Army

Also I think Episode 9: IRA vs Taliban will be interesting to see.

Not for me thanks, I'm already far too familiar with the effects of the Provies weapons.

[Raellus]

Yeah, I'm not cool with profiling terrorist's weapons & tactics.

The way the "experts" determine the victors seems pretty unscientific at times. Usually, it's really just a comparison of weapons and the deadlier weapon suite wins the contest. For example, Pirates vs. Knights concluded that Pirates were the deadliest warrior. I'm sorry, but you can't tell me a common criminal who picks on the weak is a superior warrior to a warrior who starts learning his trade as a boy and engages other warriors in ritual and actual combat on a regular basis. It all boiled down to the pirate's gunpowder weapons. So, in effect, the show's usually about the weapons instead of the warrior. It really should be called "Deadliest Weapons".

Anyway, last night's Spetznaz vs. Green Beret bucked the show's conventions by testing not only the weapons, but the warriors themselves. In the Makarov vs. M-9 Beretta contest, the Green Beret's one missed target pretty much sealed the win for the Spetznaz. By all accounts, the Beretta is superior to the Makarov.

Also, the Green Beret's E-tool split a human skull in half cross-wise but the judges gave the win to the Spetznaz's ballistic knife. Really?

The show makes lots of little errors. The AK-74 "carbine" they tested was obviously a full-sized AKM with a folding stock, as opposed to a real AKS-74U. In the Yakuza vs. Mafia episode, they repeatedly showed a Luger but kept labelling it as a Walther P-38.

For the various reasons cited above, it's hard to take the show seriously, but it's still pretty cool to see what the weapons can do to ballistic gel torsos (with real human skeletons) and pig carcasses.

I enjoyed last night's episode. I found the grenade test to be particularly interesting. Movies always overblow grenade effects. It was cool to see real footage of what real grenades can do.

[Matt Wiser]

That was my view as well; one missed shot and the "experts" judged the Makarov as superior to the M-9. And that business with the spring-loaded knife...a regular fighting knife, yes, but that? One got the impression that the producers of the show had read too much of Viktor Suvorov's book on the Spetsnatz. Now, seeing two terrorist groups decide to take each other out of the gene pool would be interesting to see....

[Legbreaker]

That was my first thought when I read the concept of the show - it's just silly to try comparing warriors from different parts of the world and even sillier to compare them from different times.

How can you possibly put up a Spartan against a Ninja for example? The Spartan, while highly trained, carried bronze age weaponry and used tactics that had no relevance whatsoever to the more modern ninja. I think it's easy to see who's the "winner" between them.

If the show is ever shown here in Australia, I'll be sure to give it a very wide berth.

[weswood]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Yeah, I'm not cool with profiling terrorist's weapons & tactics.

The way the "experts" determine the victors seems pretty unscientific at times. Usually, it's really just a comparison of weapons and the deadlier weapon suite wins the contest. For example, Pirates vs. Knights concluded that Pirates were the deadliest warrior. I'm sorry, but you can't tell me a common criminal who picks on the weak is a superior warrior to a warrior who starts learning his trade as a boy and engages other warriors in ritual and actual combat on a regular basis. It all boiled down to the pirate's gunpowder weapons. So, in effect, the show's usually about the weapons instead of the warrior. It really should be called "Deadliest Weapons".

Anyway, last night's Spetznaz vs. Green Beret bucked the show's conventions by testing not only the weapons, but the warriors themselves. In the Makarov vs. M-9 Beretta contest, the Green Beret's one missed target pretty much sealed the win for the Spetznaz. By all accounts, the Beretta is superior to the Makarov.

Also, the Green Beret's E-tool split a human skull in half cross-wise but the judges gave the win to the Spetznaz's ballistic knife. Really?

The show makes lots of little errors. The AK-74 "carbine" they tested was obviously a full-sized AKM with a folding stock, as opposed to a real AKS-74U. In the Yakuza vs. Mafia episode, they repeatedly showed a Luger but kept labelling it as a Walther P-38.

For the various reasons cited above, it's hard to take the show seriously, but it's still pretty cool to see what the weapons can do to ballistic gel torsos (with real human skeletons) and pig carcasses.

I enjoyed last night's episode. I found the grenade test to be particularly interesting. Movies always overblow grenade effects. It was cool to see real footage of what real grenades can do.

I had the same issues with the show. Plus some of thier tests to determine overall superiority of weapons aren't always equal. Such as the ballistic knife vs an Etool. Totally different weapons. I have to admit though, those damn Spetznaz were good.

[pmulcahy11b]

Maybe we should call the show The Dudliest Warrior?

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

How can you possibly put up a Spartan against a Ninja for example? The Spartan, while highly trained, carried bronze age weaponry and used tactics that had no relevance whatsoever to the more modern ninja. I think it's easy to see who's the "winner" between them.

The one bit of the show I actually like is the actually weapons testing. Some of the results have surprised me. For example, the Katana, arguably the best edged weapon ever produced by man, was unable to slash through either the Viking's iron ring mail or the Spartan's bronze shield.

The Spartan was declared the winner on the basis of his head to foot bronze armor (including the shield). That said, I'm still not sure I agree with their overall assessment.

I guess the Spetznaz may actually be better pure fighters than the Green Berets, but it's not really an apples-to-apples comparison. Although occasionally tasked with direct action missions, the GB's primary role is to train indigenous troops in counter insurgency warfare. As the operators on the show kept saying, they fight as much with their minds as they do with their bodies. The Spetznaz, at least as exemplified on the show, ...not so much.

A more apt comparison would have been Spetznaz vs. Navy SEALs or Operational Detachment Delta or SAS.

From what I've gleaned here and there, the Spetznaz's combat history has been anything but exemplary. Are there any good, accurate accounts of their operations out there?

[O'Borg]

You can watch some of the shows on Spike TVs website or just hunt them down on YouTube.

There's a thread on RPGNet about the shows and the general consensus is :
It's a load of bollocks. But it's entertaining bollocks, and in the end, isn't that the best kind? The answer, is no.

Some of the weapons tests are unrealistic - sure a Samurai Yuni can shoot out an eyeball at fifty paces, but only if the Viking Berserker is obliging enough to stand very still whilst the samurai aims. Likewise the sword/axe/club penetration tests are usually verses an dummy fixed to a solid mount and devoid of armour. When whacking someone with a big stick, a significant amount of force is going to be absorbed by your target rolling with the blow or getting knocked on his ass.
There's often a disparity in the quality of the 'experts' that baises the tests - the Apache guys were a world champion knife fighter and a US army knife and unarmed combat instructor. The gladiators had a couple of historians who liked to play with weapons. Same with the Samurai - martial arts experts vs two historical re creationists.
And then there's the childish smack talk between the experts which gets old real fast.

I'm sure the IRA vs Taliban one will be heavily biased, with some 9th generation Irish-American who's never been closer to NI than drinking a pint of Guiness waxing lyrical about those elite, balaclava wearing thugs who regularly got owned by the British Army and Ulster Police is they tried a stand up fight and who's favoured method of attack was carbombing civilians and hoping to catch a couple of bomb disposal guys in the blast or knocking on the door of an off-duty copper and hosing him with autofire in front of his family.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Raellus

The one bit of the show I actually like is the actually weapons testing. Some of the results have surprised me. For example, the Katana, arguably the best edged weapon ever produced by man, was unable to slash through either the Viking's iron ring mail or the Spartan's bronze shield.

Once again, it's just not a valid comparison. The katana simply isn't intended for use against heavily armoured opponents so it's unsuprising that it wasn't going to cut through virtually any sort of metal. Like all medieval warrior cultures, their were a number of weapons which were designed for such targets though.

Historical accuracy is another grave concern I have for the show. From what I learnt all those years ago in school, classical Greek soliders (including the Spartans) used very little metal as armour instead having not much more than heavily starched linen and leather (or something like that - it's been 20 years....)

[kato13]

Originally Posted by O'Borg

I'm sure the IRA vs Taliban one will be heavily biased, with some 9th generation Irish-American who's never been closer to NI than drinking a pint of Guiness waxing lyrical about those elite, balaclava wearing thugs who regularly got owned by the British Army and Ulster Police is they tried a stand up fight and who's favoured method of attack was carbombing civilians and hoping to catch a couple of bomb disposal guys in the blast or knocking on the door of an off-duty copper and hosing him with autofire in front of his family.

I just want to say as someone who has strong Irish roots, that every Irish American I know considers the IRA to be a disgusting embarrassment to Irish history and culture. Even as an American I consider their inclusion to be in worst taste than the Taliban. At least the Taliban have had military engagements against other significant military units.

IMO they should have done Viet Cong versus Mujaheddin (since they each "defeated" a superpower), but there would probably have been too much of a weapons overlap.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by kato13

I just want to say as someone who has strong Irish roots, that every Irish American I know considers the IRA to be a disgusting embarrassment to Irish history and culture. Even as an American I consider their inclusion to be in worst taste than the Taliban. At least the Taliban have had military engagements against other significant military units.

IMO they should have done Viet Cong versus Mujaheddin (since they each "defeated" a superpower), but there would probably have been too much of a weapons overlap.

Well said. I agree with you on all points, Kato. There's a huge difference, in my mind at least, between a legitimate guerilla/"freedom fighter" and a terrorist. The latter, IMO, are the scum of the earth. What are they going to do on the show? Suicide bomber at the Afghani girl's school vs. pipe bomb at the pub?

Leg, you are correct. The bronze muscle cuirass was used for a relatively short period of time (including the Persian wars) but had fallen out of fashion for all but officers during the Peloponnesian War and the Hellenistic period. It was replaced by a cuirass made of layered, hardened linen. The "head-to-foot" description refers to the Corinthian helmet, hoplos shield, and leg grieves- a cuirass of one sort or another may or may not be worn but, when crouching, the shield covers the hoplite from chin to shins. In formation, when used properly (i.e. close order phalanx facing the enemy), the panoply (with or without cuirass) presented a nearly unbroken bronze "front". Outflank the hoplite, however, or get behind him... slaughter ensues.

Like I said in the thread starter post, it's a pretty cheeseball, not terribly accurate show, but for some strange reason (appreciation for camp, latent bloodlust, repressed machismo?) I still enjoy it.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Raellus

The one bit of the show I actually like is the actually weapons testing. Some of the results have surprised me. For example, the Katana, arguably the best edged weapon ever produced by man, was unable to slash through either the Viking's iron ring mail or the Spartan's bronze shield.

That reminds me of something I learned in one of my college history courses. During the Crusades, a captured Crusader and the Muslims that captured him were comparing swords. They had a pillow and an iron bar. The Crusader, with his huge broadsword, hacked the iron bar in half with one blow. The Muslim warrior, with his scimitar, sliced the pillow in half after it was thrown into the air. The Crusader's sword simply batted the pillow aside, while the Muslim warrior's scimitar cracked when it hit the iron bar.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by kato13

IMO they should have done Viet Cong versus Mujaheddin (since they each "defeated" a superpower), but there would probably have been too much of a weapons overlap.

I like it. That's a great idea Kato.

[Matt Wiser]

How about two WW II enemies that never faced each other in combat? I'm talking about the USMC vs. the Waffen-SS. America's and Germany's meanest, thoughest, and most dedicated fighters never did encounter each other in combat. An episode of this show with that premise would be interesting.

[Darksheer]

these shows are unquestionably biased in every aspect and im actually surprised this isnt on fox
the "experts" usually have no formal military training but have either
a: been in the cadets
b: read alot of books
c: got beat up by a real military person for being smarmy
d: failed out of basic and went back to school
e: owned alot of <insert military weapon/hardware here>
f: been related to someone who served

and 90 % of the stuff is garbage
but It does make for a amusing hour

[Raellus]

Tonight's episode- arguably the silliest match up to date. Maori warrior vs. Shaolin Monk.

Should be... interesting.

[Legbreaker]

So.... How many points of IQ are you intending to lose by watching it?

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

So.... How many points of IQ are you intending to lose by watching it?

I think I'll risk one or two for this one. I have always been a sucker for all information about the Shao-Lin. I am pretty sure I won't really learn anything new but it might have some different interpretations.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

So.... How many points of IQ are you intending to lose by watching it?

It's like the reason I love slasher movies -- they're funny!

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

It's like the reason I love slasher movies -- they're funny!

Yeah, I'll watch it for the comedic value. Plus, I've got plenty of surplus IQ points to spare.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Tonight's episode- arguably the silliest match up to date. Maori warrior vs. Shaolin Monk.

Should be... interesting.

I think it would come down to what era each was taken from. Once the Maori had been introduced to the firearm and the New Zealand Wars were underway the Maori fully embraced the gun. The Maori wooden pallisade fort or 'Pa' was also pretty amazing - they could assemble one in a single night and often built them and left them empty, both as decoys and as positions to fall back to. Maori earthworks were very clever, they independently invented the zig-zag trench to prevent invaders shooting straight along trenchlines during storming actions. And in the New Zealand bush the Maori were the absolute masters of their domain.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Targan

I think it would come down to what era each was taken from. Once the Maori had been introduced to the firearm and the New Zealand Wars were underway the Maori fully embraced the gun. The Maori wooden pallisade fort or 'Pa' was also pretty amazing - they could assemble one in a single night and often built them and left them empty, both as decoys and as positions to fall back to. Maori earthworks were very clever, they independently invented the zig-zag trench to prevent invaders shooting straight along trenchlines during storming actions. And in the New Zealand bush the Maori were the absolute masters of their domain.

That's true of a lot of these warriors they feature -- do you think the Ninja would be using bows, swords, and shuriken today? No, they'd be using silenced pistols, Barrett M-82s with the best optics, and setting up Claymores in front of peoples' houses.