What is "canon"?

[Legbreaker]

It seems that my position on this has not been sufficently explained in a manner that all can understand.

Canon, as defined by Dictionary.com is as follows (ignoring religious references):

3. the body of rules, principles, or standards accepted as axiomatic and universally binding in a field of study or art.
4. a fundamental principle or general rule.
5. a standard; criterion.
7. any officially recognized set of sacred books.
8. any comprehensive list of books within a field.
9. the works of an author that have been accepted as authentic.

In other words, the published material - books, Challenge magazines, etc, are the foundation on which everything else is built. These materials are the cornerstone of the T2K universe - change what's in the books, particularly with regard to history, and it's no longer canon T2K.

HOWEVER, just because something isn't covered in canon, doesn't mean it should not be used. Canon, as stated, is a base, a starting point. Adding additional detail is not only allowable, but vital!

All I am saying is that the GDW materials must be referred to and expanded upon, not changed wholesale and the result labelled "canon" when clearly it is not.

Everyone is, has been and always will be free to do whatever they wish, as long as their ideas either as individuals or groups is not asserted to be canon.

We now have three seperate canon timelines. Surely we already have enough variety to give everyone what they need to play the game?

[ChalkLine]

Question: What is "canon"?

Answer: Something that shoots "shels"

[Mohoender]

Leg I appreciate several of your observations (and I'm not being sarcastic) but here you start to look a bit like ancient knight on a kind of quest he feels he is the only one to understand or may be like Don Quixote de la Mancha (No insult but may be some teasing. Don't take me wrong). Just to put it as the French would say: "Vous êtes plus royaliste que le Roi" (You are getting more royalist than the king himself).

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

It seems that my position on this has not been sufficently explained in a manner that all can understand.

You have make your point pretty clear and somewhat in quite rude way which in my opinion doesn't help your point. Point which is perfectly legitimate to begin with but now can you calm down on it.

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

In other words, the published material - books, Challenge magazines, etc, are the foundation on which everything else is built. These materials are the cornerstone of the T2K universe - change what's in the books, particularly with regard to history, and it's no longer canon T2K.

Obvious, you have been hitting at an open door.

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

HOWEVER, just because something isn't covered in canon, doesn't mean it should not be used. Canon, as stated, is a base, a starting point. Adding additional detail is not only allowable, but vital!

For me that position of yours has been clear but understand that the way you put things could have been felt in a wrong way by some.

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

All I am saying is that the GDW materials must be referred to and expanded upon, not changed wholesale and the result labelled "canon" when clearly it is not.

Obvious again. By the way it is refered to all the time on this forum and if someone forget to refer to it once in a while, Big deal!

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Everyone is, has been and always will be free to do whatever they wish, as long as their ideas either as individuals or groups is not asserted to be canon.

Again this is obvious.

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

We now have three seperate canon timelines. Surely we already have enough variety to give everyone what they need to play the game?

Sorry you are wrong. We Have two not three. I imagine that the third one you are referring to is T2013 and I won't follow you on that one. This is not T2K canon it is simply an entirely new game reworking the initial idea (therefore following your own definition of canon, it's a new canon). They have put up something different, they have written it in different manner as well, they have made a new set of rules. I'm not saying it's bad (for my part its great and I personnaly grant full respect to Smokewolf and Tegyrius for that). I even bought it but will probably never use it. For my part, it comes too late and I grew too old to learn new RPG rules. The same happened with Star Wars. They are free to do as they please, I'm free not to buy it.

Now that this is said. Canon is ever present weither we say it or not. Without the original T2K team we would not be having these exchanges and they have put some amazing work. Even the weakest of their products is an amazing work (that point is as good for the T2013 team). Trust me on that. I'm writing books and published a RPG of my own, I perfectly know how hard it is and sometimes unrewarding. When you write a novel you are recognized as an author (talented or not). When writing a RPG your are at the same time graphist, novelist, game designer... (all well recognized artistic professions) but you are more hardly recognized as an artist.

Please don't take this as an attack but honestly you are tiring me (and what I'm saying is only me). To put it in a rudest way: "Lache nous la grappe".

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

We Have two not three. I imagine that the third one you are referring to is T2013 and I won't follow you on that one. This is not T2K canon it is simply an entirely new game reworking the initial idea (therefore following your own definition of canon, it's a new canon).

Personally I agree with you on this point, however many (particularly the designers of T2013) may disagree so I included it.

Originally Posted by Mohoender

Please don't take this as an attack...

I most certainly do NOT take it as an attack. I welcome feedback otherwise I wouldn't have bothered to state my position once more as clearly as I could.

My arguement is simply that the GDW works have been published and cannot be changed. If somebody disagrees with the GDW works, then by all means change it to suit, publish and discuss the changes, but don't try to claim individual (or group) perspectives as "the way it must be".

I myself use work done by many which is definately not canon in the strictest sense. I pick and choose a bit here and a bit there, but always use the GDW works as a base. This is how I believe all historical or alternate history RPGs should be approached. Change the base, canon work too much and you've completely changed the whole feel.

It's a bit like time travel. If one person was to travel back and assasinate say General Montgomery in 1941, the course of WWII might have been significantly different. And if that was different, the world we live in today is sure to be significantly altered.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

I most certainly do NOT take it as an attack. I welcome feedback otherwise I wouldn't have bothered to state my position once more as clearly as I could.

I expected that. By the way thanks for making this thread. IMO it's a much better way to defend your point.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

It's a bit like time travel. If one person was to travel back and assasinate say General Montgomery in 1941, the course of WWII might have been significantly different. And if that was different, the world we live in today is sure to be significantly altered.

Tempting. I know the British are praising Monty but I personally don't. He had done a great job in the desert but his late political maneuver needlesly costed the life of many (IMO). The poor lads at Arnhem to end with. I definetely am a fan of the movie "A bridge too far".

For my part, I prefer commanders such as Auchinleck, Wavell, Wingate...

[ChalkLine]

I, however, am not a fan of Cornelius Ryan, who among other things is a liar and someone who quotes out of context.

Ryan manages to saddle one man entirely with the whole debacle, but strangely avoids praising the same guy for the D-Day landings . . .

[Legbreaker]

I agree - great movie, but the operation was a bit a gamble right from the beginning. Vital intelligence was ignored (such as the existance of two SS Divisions in the Arnhem area) and some units on both sides performed better (or worse as the case may be) than others.
It was however worth trying, but perhaps with a slightly shorter aim of say Nijmegen, and followed up later with another push. Of course that last few miles between Nijmegen and Arnhem isn't exactly what one would like to have to attack a defending enemy across....

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

Tempting. I know the British are praising Monty but I personally don't. He had done a great job in the desert but his late political maneuver needlesly costed the life of many (IMO). The poor lads at Arnhem to end with. I definetely am a fan of the movie "A bridge too far".

Market-Garden was Monty's baby, and it was a giant clusterf**k.

[Jason Weiser]

Ok Leg,
Time to get off the high horse. You want to couch your view on canon or not based on what GDW did, fine. Got no problem with that. But here's where frankly, I am calling you out...when you accuse me, Chico, FF and Law of "forcing" anyone to accept anything we do.

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Everyone is, has been and always will be free to do whatever they wish, as long as their ideas either as individuals or groups is not asserted to be canon.

Since when did ANYTHING we wrote come with a use or else label? Did we have the game police knock down your door? Nope. And who in the hell died and made you keeper of WHAT IS CANON? If Mark Miller or Frank Frey or Loren Wiseman want to weigh in, great. I'll take their word...matter of fact, I know when Mr. Frey saw Law's work on the USMC, he said it was better than what he had originally done for RDF Sourcebook, don't believe me? I can dig up the post.

Leg, want the truth? I think your viceral feelings toward our work have a personal element. Targan isn't nuts about some of what we do, but I have never seen him be as downright nasty as you have been on occasion. Somehow, he can manage to be rather respectful towards everyone on the boards..and you know something else? This is the first damn time I've ever had to lower the boom on a poster on an internet board. Mohrender had it right about you I am afraid. I'm going to say it again, Don't like what we do? Fine, write something yourself that MEETS your standards of what meets T2K and then perhaps, I'd at least see some effort back up your vehemence. Till then, you're all blow and no show.