The loss of modern infantry weapons

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by jester

I am so glad we never had yo account for our "spent" blanks Because most were never spent, but, they did get "used" or so the report went.

Not to mention those magazines that went missing every so often...

[jester]

I was always the devoted team and squad leader, giving up my BFA to the new boots who didn't have one so they could get the important training they needed. I was so selfless that way

[neuk]

When the pistol ban hit the Uk a few years ago, the poilce went round and took all the guns people had regardless of age etc. anything 9mm or modern did not all get destroyed.

1. the police took some into storage.

2. the police stole some and then sold them on. local officer got nicked for this around 12 months ago selling guns taken almost 6-8 years ago, and then destroyed! so what the govenment tells us and what the govenment does are two very different things.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Trooper

WHAT! Civilian range and you didnt have to pick up spent brass! "You shoot twenty and you will give me 20 empty." Very nice and easy when it was dark and snow on the ground... (Sako and Lapua will reload spent brass to blank rounds and guess what- when not on FDF area you have to pick those up too...)

I think we had to return about 90%, but as long as it looked right on casual inspection (ie couldn't make the weight up with brass bednobs)...
So, we usually spent 15 minutes clearing the mound followed by a swift echange of sandbags with the gun club. Everyone got what they wanted and a few drinks were passed round.

[m47dragon]

The Anniston, Alabama Army Arsenal was mentioned, but it should be further added that they are but one depot storing thousands of arms and ammunition (we're talking WWI/WWII/Korea/Vietnam surplus arms.) This is also the home of the Civilian Marksmanship Program's South Store where they sell thousands of rifles (M1 Garands, M1 Carbines, 1903 and 1903A3 Springfields and Model of 1917 Enfields) every year to the civilian market...along with millions of rounds of surplus and new ammunition (they also sell .22 target rifles, and used to sell custom match built Ar-15's.) This is just the program's south store...their north store is located at Camp Perry, Ohio (and they've tons of guns there...picked up a beautiful M1 Carbine from them last summer) These are what they have in stock...they've been selling rifles for decades so there are tons of rifles already in civilian hands that are chambered for common military calibers.

As far as constructing new ARs...lower receivers can be milled from an aluminum billet if you have modicum skill level. It was mentioned making cast moldings and screwing them together like a clamshell...this has been done by a private company already (and the BATFE shut them down promptly, but that is another story.) If you scan the internet, you will find that lower receivers have been milled from high density plastics, literally made out of plastic cutting boards. The real difficulty will be the upper receiver and barrels, although there are millions in surplus storage that could theoretically be pulled into service. The real problem will probably be transporting pieces from their storage depots to industrial areas. Small parts can be fabricated fairly effectively from other materials.

I like the idea of stamped metal parts...AK receivers can be stamped and bent very easily...weld, screw or rivet. Again, barrels will be the hardest part.

Any cartridge can be loaded with blackpowder versus smokeless...you just have to know the reloading differences and expect your semi-auto and automatics to very quickly become single shot repeaters. Black powder is incredibly caustic and care and maintenance will increase.

Great topic!

[jester]

Thus, I suggested the two substituites:

MINI 14 which can be milled from a smaller piece of metal and poof you have your reciever, tap and thread it for a barrel and screw in the barrel, the trigger assembly is the next major component and then a stock and a magazine and it is ready to go.

AR-18; A stamped alternative to the M16 series. Stamped like the AK, with internal workings akin to the M240, simple, cheap and reliable but close to a M16 none the less.

As for stocks, those are easy, you can make a traditional stock if you had the polymer, a tube style colapsible stock either plastic or metal. Or a fixed tube stock again made from tube stock, and the forgrip, a simple checkered or similiar pattern metal tube and you are good to go. As it said with the M16EZ you could also make woodenstocks for them which I have seen in real life which look pretty good.

[waiting4something]

Originally Posted by neuk

When the pistol ban hit the Uk a few years ago, the poilce went round and took all the guns people had regardless of age etc. anything 9mm or modern did not all get destroyed.

1. the police took some into storage.

2. the police stole some and then sold them on. local officer got nicked for this around 12 months ago selling guns taken almost 6-8 years ago, and then destroyed! so what the govenment tells us and what the govenment does are two very different things.

I can't believe people gave them up so easy. Personally, I rather die.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by waiting4something

I can't believe people gave them up so easy. Personally, I rather die.

Mr. Heston would be proud of you

[waiting4something]

Originally Posted by kato13

Mr. Heston would be proud of you

Thanks, I know the media wouldn't.

[Trooper]

Nice ersatz weapons!

http://ww2f.com/weapons-wwii/33216-v...mall-arms.html

[Brother in Arms]

Kalos
this is an interesting thread though I haven't had a chance to read it all. I am a gunsmith by trade and I can give you my take on the circumstances of armament and firearms manufacture after the twilight war just repost what you would like to know. In reading some of the things you posted I can see you have a basic understanding of firearms manufacture. But one must consider the time and effort that goes into producing firearms.... consider today that most firearms are made using CNC machinery which has more to do with computer operation than knowing how to operate a milling machine.

As for manufacturing M16 type rifles....I wouldn't even attempt it. Build one from exsiting components sure anyone could do and do. Infact AR's are one of the most popular rifles for civillians in the US to build. But to produce one from raw material would be very difficult.

Also Assuming that an M1 would be easy to produce is also incorrect...first of all on an original M1 the reciever is made from a forging and then there are several hundred individual and complex milling process's. Also don't forget about the proper hardness of that milled reciever. When made today they are usually investment cast and then precision milled. LRB of long island makes a modern forged semi-auto only M14 reciever and it costs over a $1000 just for the reciever alone...

Not even getting into how difficult it would be to make a barrel and yes I know people have been doing these sorts of things for hundreds of years but its not easy.

Also there is going to be no shortage of firearms especially not in the US. What there will be a shortage of is ammunition. I own many many firearms but I only posses about 7,000 round of ammunition for my entire collection and that is somewhat unusual. Most people in the US have much less than 1000 rounds on hand for there firearms. I believe military weapons and calibers would be in the Majority not minority just due to the qauntity and availability of ammunition. 5.56x45(.223) 7.62X51(.308) are popular and going to be found in the US. Of course .30-06 is ubiqoutous here also even though is hasn't been used militarily for 40 years.

I think you could arm your militia with many different types of firearms if you are so inclined. If you would like some good examples of rifles that might be used by a Militia in the U.S. let me know.

[neuk]

Originally Posted by waiting4something

I can't believe people gave them up so easy. Personally, I rather die.

Friends of mine waited until the police turned up ate their door. an MP5-A3 puts a very good argument across, lets not forget the the police dog and of course the universal key they have for all doors in case you have lost yours, the seldge hammer.

No what happened was wrong on so many fronts, it has not stopped the illgeal weapons from being there, and a SMLE is so much more fun! Also England has a lot of guns for head of pop, same as English police are armed just they are better hidden, and not so many as the USA or Europe.

An English A.R.V. Armed Responce Vehicle, has two officers, two MP5-A3's and 9mm pistols, CS gas, and stun guns. The training at county level is done by SAS trained firearm officers to a very high level. Responce to pretty much anywhere is around 20 mins with Helicopter support, just for you Merc or Spec ops fans

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Brother in Arms

If you would like some good examples of rifles that might be used by a Militia in the U.S. let me know.

Lets hear it. After all, isn't sharing thoughts and opinions what this forum is all about?

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Brother in Arms

If you would like some good examples of rifles that might be used by a Militia in the U.S. let me know.

Seconded

[waiting4something]

Originally Posted by neuk

Friends of mine waited until the police turned up ate their door. an MP5-A3 puts a very good argument across, lets not forget the the police dog and of course the universal key they have for all doors in case you have lost yours, the seldge hammer.

No what happened was wrong on so many fronts, it has not stopped the illgeal weapons from being there, and a SMLE is so much more fun! Also England has a lot of guns for head of pop, same as English police are armed just they are better hidden, and not so many as the USA or Europe.

An English A.R.V. Armed Responce Vehicle, has two officers, two MP5-A3's and 9mm pistols, CS gas, and stun guns. The training at county level is done by SAS trained firearm officers to a very high level. Responce to pretty much anywhere is around 20 mins with Helicopter support, just for you Merc or Spec ops fans

See the ironic thing here is now english cops are armed even though they have for the most part disarmed their citizens/potential probelm children. Infact your saying they have special response teams with MP-5's and a freakin Helo? Huh, sounds like more then enough reason fight those draconian goons that work for the government of England. I mean if the guns are "gone" now, why do they need such a paramilitary police force. Sure, nowdays they will use the war on terrorism as a excuse, but really they just want all the power so people can never challenge them.
I understand why people don't challenge the government- it's scary and you will be made the bad guy by the media. Not just that, it's almost a sure trip to the grave if your lucky and prison if you aren't. I prey that bs doesn't happen in the States, but I know what my choice will be if it does- not trying to be a hard dog, but hay somebody has to jump in the fire. Sorry for your loss of freedom man.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by waiting4something

See the ironic thing here is now english cops are armed even though they have for the most part disarmed their citizens/potential probelm children. Infact your saying they have special response teams with MP-5's and a freakin Helo? Huh, sounds like more then enough reason fight those draconian goons that work for the government of England. I mean if the guns are "gone" now, why do they need such a paramilitary police force. Sure, nowdays they will use the war on terrorism as a excuse, but really they just want all the power so people can never challenge them. I understand why people don't challenge the government- it's scary and you will be made the bad guy by the media. Not just that, it's almost a sure trip to the grave if your lucky and prison if you aren't. I prey that bs doesn't happen in the States, but I know what my choice will be if it does- not trying to be a hard dog, but hay somebody has to jump in the fire. Sorry for your loss of freedom man.

This is edging into the realm of real world politics, which is often a hot button issue. Britain has never had the connections to guns that the US does, so the perspective of the average Briton could be vastly different from that of the average American gunowner.

Here are a couple of older threads which are tangentally connected to this one
Privately owned weapons in Europe?
What happened to all those guns?

[kato13]

Another thread form that past which might be related to this one

Post-TDM Arms Manufacture

[neuk]

Originally Posted by kato13

This is edging into the realm of real world politics, which is often a hot button issue. Britain has never had the connections to guns that the US does, so the perspective of the average Briton could be vastly different from that of the average American gunowner.

Here are a couple of older threads which are tangentally connected to this one
Privately owned weapons in Europe?
What happened to all those guns?

Sorry this is not the thread to discuss this so i will try not to rabbit on. I have read the old threads above. There is a big gun culture in England, but it is very quite, after a number of shoot outs where the police rightly killed the bad guys the press is against all guns. OK I have a number of friends who shoot full bore rifle, like SMLE's .303 or Indian/Pakistan converted 7.62. .22 rifles are very much liked and common in this sport both bolt and semi auto(the only gun you are aloud in semi auto) 7.62 bolt action used for hunting ( deer stalking is BIG money in Scotland and the North East) Whinchester carbines in .38 are beloved, because the police hate them for there size and mag. Ammo is the hardest thing to come by, with each gun having to have its place on your lisence and diferent calibers needing more permits. The most you are aloud (to my knowledge) is around 1000 rounds. However in England you can have all the component parts to make the ammo with out a lisence! It only becomes against the law when and if you put the parts together with out the lisence. The bigest caliber that i know of locally is a .50 cal single shot rifle used in compeation, the police are as mad as hell about it. Within around a 10 mile radius of where I live there are some 15 rifles that I know of and three people who press their own ammo from reused brass.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by neuk

There is a big gun culture in England, but it is very quite, after a number of shoot outs where the police rightly killed the bad guys the press is against all guns.

Didn't mean to suggest that Briton did not have a strong gun culture. Sorry if it came off that way. We Americans are kinda assumed to be a little more gun focused than most other nations.

As always it is a shame when a few bad apples ruin things for everyone.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by neuk

When the pistol ban hit the Uk a few years ago, the poilce went round and took all the guns people had regardless of age etc. anything 9mm or modern did not all get destroyed.

Purely in a T2k context, there is a possibility that handguns would never have been banned in the UK. The handgun ban came into effect in 1997, as a direct result of the 1996 Dunblane Massacre.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Purely in a T2k context, there is a possibility that handguns would never have been banned in the UK. The handgun ban came into effect in 1997, as a direct result of the 1996 Dunblane Massacre.

Dunblane massacre

Since I Googled it I expect others would have. I remembered it but not the details.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by waiting4something

See the ironic thing here is now english cops are armed even though they have for the most part disarmed their citizens/potential probelm children. Infact your saying they have special response teams with MP-5's and a freakin Helo? Huh, sounds like more then enough reason fight those draconian goons that work for the government of England. I mean if the guns are "gone" now, why do they need such a paramilitary police force. Sure, nowdays they will use the war on terrorism as a excuse, but really they just want all the power so people can never challenge them.
I understand why people don't challenge the government- it's scary and you will be made the bad guy by the media. Not just that, it's almost a sure trip to the grave if your lucky and prison if you aren't. I prey that bs doesn't happen in the States, but I know what my choice will be if it does- not trying to be a hard dog, but hay somebody has to jump in the fire. Sorry for your loss of freedom man.

The police in places like the UK and Australia are armed because despite the law abiding populace largely having been disarmed of their firearms, the criminals still have ready access to guns. Unlike the USA, the citizens of the UK and Australia don't have any fundamental constitutional right to bear arms so it was a relatively simple matter in both those countries to legislate for most private gun ownership to be illegal.

I strongly suspect that the overall number of privately owned firearms in my country remains at a large fraction of what it was before the really draconian gun laws were introduced, the only difference now is that most privately owned firearms here are illegally owned. I'm not a police officer or a statistician so this is my opinion only but I have anecdotal evidence. And as well, a number of times in the past decade I have been offered a variety of guns for purchase "under the table".

Alot of people here were pretty miffed when the really strict gun laws came in but in Australian culture there has never really been rabid pro-gun lobby, well not loudly in public anyway. For most Australians Charlton Heston's "from my cold, dead hands" speech would be considered over the top, even a bit frightening. Different cultures, different norms, different forms of expression.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by kato13

Dunblane massacre

Since I Googled it I expect others would have. I remembered it but not the details.

Thanks Kato....

My bad...I should have elaborated...

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by jester

I was always the devoted team and squad leader, giving up my BFA to the new boots who didn't have one so they could get the important training they needed. I was so selfless that way

You have no idea where my mind went at first when I saw "BFA"...

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by jester

I am so glad we never had yo account for our "spent" blanks Because most were never spent, but, they did get "used" or so the report went.

When I was in, the attitude among the supply pogues was, "Guess you didn't need all those blanks, pyro, chemlights, etc. We'll allot you less next year." So definitely, everything "got used."

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

When I was in, the attitude among the supply pogues was, "Guess you didn't need all those blanks, pyro, chemlights, etc. We'll allot you less next year." So definitely, everything "got used."

This attitude is amazingly widespread and amazingly wasteful. I've gone out on many a training exercise in which the unused pyro, blanks, and whatnot are simply consumed at the end of the exercise so that next cycle's ration won't shrink. As a young lieutenant, I got a serious chewing of my fourth point of contact for bringing a half-dozen belts of 7.62 blanks back to the armory. I thought I was conserving resources. What I was really doing was telling the battalion S3 that my company didn't need so much; my CO was hopping mad about it.

Changing this type of thinking requires senior leadership to change their minds about how supply is run. In Twilight: 2000, every round is going to be counted when it comes to training. Simply burning up ammunition to keep the issue of ammunition the same won't be an option. I suppose, then, all it takes is a limited nuclear war for the resources to take on value.

Webstral

[neuk]

[QUOTE=kato13;18808]Didn't mean to suggest that Briton did not have a strong gun culture. Sorry if it came off that way.

You did not, as a gamer for a lot of years and a GM of twilight for the last 20(ish), i believe that my game gets better by talking to other gamers, in the North East of England where I live the gaming community has shrunk over the years.

I have never given much thought in my games for where the 'new' guns come from. Thankyou to all for making me think about topics like this.