TW 2000 vs. TW 2013 burst fire rules

[Michael Lewis]

I was wondering what you thought about the burst rules for both systems? Both are quite different.

Twilight 2000 uses 1d6 for every bullet in a burst with a 6 being a hit. Burst volume can be quite high, emptying a clip in a turn not an issue. Bursts are modified by range and recoil. There is a danger zone to either side of the burst with missed dice being rerolled.

Twilight 2013, bursts give you a +1 bonus per extra bullet fired. The extra bullets have a 50% of hitting the same target. There is a rule for sustained fire giving the shooter an attack of opportunity.

Which one do you think is better?

Which one do you think replicates reality the best?

Why do you think the author choose his method?

Thanks

[Targan]

The Twilight:2000 burst rules you mentioned are not familiar to me. Is that v2+?

[stg58fal]

Originally Posted by Targan

The Twilight:2000 burst rules you mentioned are not familiar to me. Is that v2+?

Yes.

[stg58fal]

I don't think either one of them is all that realistic, though I do like how in the v2 rules, you automatically miss with a portion of the burst as the range increases. At our last session of 2013, one of the PC's fired a 12.7mm Russian heavy machinegun, mounted on a vehicle, at a bad guy. Moving truck, at night, shooting at muzzle flashes. He was hoping to suppress the enemy long enough for the group to get away. I told him that realistically there was no way he was going to hit with more than one or two rounds out of the ten he fired, but go ahead and roll the dice anyway. He got something like seven hits on his target. Out of ten rounds. I was reminded of the GM's reaction in the scene in Gamers 2 when the bard tries to backstab the book and rolls a 1 on his hit roll, stabbing (and killing) himself. "That...was unprecedented."

I DO like how 2013 gives a bonus per round fired, and another when tracers are used. v2 rule is just too much dumb luck. You've got a 1 in 6 chance of hitting, no matter how good (or poor) you are with the weapon. IRL, skill does count when you're using automatic weapons.

I may have to work up some kind of homebrew rule for this. Combine v2/2.2's reduced number of rounds that can hit due to range, with 2013's bonuses to hit, and maybe go through some of my books for other systems and see what I can stea....er, adapt...for use in my campaign. IIRC, Shadowrun had a decent system (2nd and 3rd editions, anywya...I don't have 1st and haven't read 4th), though its been so long since I looked at my Shadowrun books, I can't remember for sure. Now I'm gonna have to go look that up....

[Targan]

There are definitely realistic burst fire rules out there. I found some good ones that I used for many years...

[stg58fal]

Originally Posted by Targan

There are definitely realistic burst fire rules out there. I found some good ones that I used for many years...

LOL. Let me guess....


Now that I think about it, I remember how the auto-fire rules worked in Shadowrun, and they won't work for Twilight.

[Mahatatain]

Originally Posted by Targan

The Twilight:2000 burst rules you mentioned are not familiar to me. Is that v2+?

From memory I think that the loads of D6 rules for burst fire are v1 and v2.0 - I think that they changed to a skill roll in v2.2

I'm sure that someone will correct me if my memory is wrong though.

[B.T.]

Originally Posted by Mahatatain

From memory I think that the loads of D6 rules for burst fire are v1 and v2.0 - I think that they changed to a skill roll in v2.2

I'm sure that someone will correct me if my memory is wrong though.

I'm to lazy to look it up in the BYB, but I'm shure, that Mahatatain is right. You loose rounds/D20, depending on the range, but you roll for bullets, that can hit the enemy in V2.2!

@ Mahatatain:
Man, your nickname is a nightmare to write: Too man "ta"s, if you ask me

[Mahatatain]

Originally Posted by B.T.

I'm to lazy to look it up in the BYB, but I'm shure, that Mahatatain is right. You loose rounds/D20, depending on the range, but you roll for bullets, that can hit the enemy in V2.2!

And the chance of hitting is much less than 1 in 6 (as with v1 and v2.0) - in v2.2 you're rolling a task check against your Autogun skill for each bullet with a typical chance of hitting of 1 in 10 (1 or 2 on a D20) - the number of rolls you make is dictated by the number of rounds you fire, reduced by range and recoil.

Originally Posted by B.T.

@ Mahatatain:
Man, your nickname is a nightmare to write: Too man "ta"s, if you ask me

Sorry - it's the name of an old character of mine that I loved but retired.

[Michael Lewis]

Oh yeah! I was looking at 2.0 My bad.

So Targan. What are these rules that your talking about?

[B.T.]

Originally Posted by Michael Lewis

So Targan. What are these rules that your talking about?

Yes, Targan, tell us about these rules

[Cdnwolf]

Originally Posted by B.T.

Yes, Targan, tell us about these rules

Yes, Targan, tell us about these rules.


V2.2 (which I am running) has a confusing burst rule... if i get it right someone firing all five burst in one turn with an AKM (recoil 7) has to take (35 minus your strength) dice loss per burst... so someone with a strength of 8 would have to lose 27 dice when only firing 25... even at short range that brings it down to only 5 dice out of 25 hitting (minimum 1 dice rule)

Plus all automatic weapons are fired at the impossible difficulty level (.25) so even with a skill of 8 and a strength of 8 (total skill 16/4) would mean they would hit on a 4 or less ... almost impossible... and unrealistic

[Michael Lewis]

Originally Posted by Cdnwolf

Yes, Targan, tell us about these rules.


V2.2 (which I am running) has a confusing burst rule... if i get it right someone firing all five burst in one turn with an AKM (recoil 7) has to take (35 minus your strength) dice loss per burst... so someone with a strength of 8 would have to lose 27 dice when only firing 25... even at short range that brings it down to only 5 dice out of 25 hitting (minimum 1 dice rule)

Plus all automatic weapons are fired at the impossible difficulty level (.25) so even with a skill of 8 and a strength of 8 (total skill 16/4) would mean they would hit on a 4 or less ... almost impossible... and unrealistic

Yeah, that seems redonkulous.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Michael Lewis

So Targan. What are these rules that your talking about?

Well, Michael, I'm glad you've asked

I really like Gunmaster's burst fire rules. Gunmaster (a rules addition to Harnmaster) uses a straightforward percentile skills and task resolution system. To simplify the burst to-hit calculations, the writer (Bill Gant) created easy-to-use cross-referencing tables to give the GM and player an at-a-glance way to determine how many rounds are likely to hit the target based on the effective chance to hit (the chance to hit after all modifying factors have been added and subtracted) and the level of success or failure of the to-hit roll. Even if you don't use Gunmaster the concept is solid and worth a look:

http://www.warflail.com/harn/index.html#GMG

[B.T.]

Originally Posted by Cdnwolf

[snip]

V2.2 (which I am running) has a confusing burst rule... if i get it right someone firing all five burst in one turn with an AKM (recoil 7) has to take (35 minus your strength) dice loss per burst... so someone with a strength of 8 would have to lose 27 dice when only firing 25... even at short range that brings it down to only 5 dice out of 25 hitting (minimum 1 dice rule)

Plus all automatic weapons are fired at the impossible difficulty level (.25) so even with a skill of 8 and a strength of 8 (total skill 16/4) would mean they would hit on a 4 or less ... almost impossible... and unrealistic

Yes, that's what the rules say.
But keep in mind, that not-hitting dice are hold back. Half of the dice are rerolled imediately, to generate hits to "bystanders". Half of the dice, that are still missing are held back to generate hits to persons, that cross the Line of Fire, up to the firer's initiative step in the following Combat Turn.

Hm, unrealistic ... yes. But, as it is a gaming rule, it works in the game, to hold down an enemy with a carpet of bullets.
I really cant remember, if this applied to ver.1 and ver2.0.

An addition: After Mahatatain's post yesterday, I got aware, that I used a false interpretation of the rules all these years. Off course, the skill: Autogun should be used, because it is an automatic weapon. I allways used the Small Arms (Rifle) skill for tasks with battle rifles, assault rifles, and MPs/submachineguns. Autogun is reserved for heavy MGs and autocannons (I let the players chose, when they fire a medium MG. In this case they may use the skill that is higher.). This was a mistake, but still it worked, because most PCs have a higher skill in small arms, than they have in Autogun. I believe, I will stick to my wrong interpretation of the rules.

[weswood]

Originally Posted by B.T.

Yes, that's what the rules say.
But keep in mind, that not-hitting dice are hold back. Half of the dice are rerolled imediately, to generate hits to "bystanders". Half of the dice, that are still missing are held back to generate hits to persons, that cross the Line of Fire, up to the firer's initiative step in the following Combat Turn.

Hm, unrealistic ... yes. But, as it is a gaming rule, it works in the game, to hold down an enemy with a carpet of bullets.
I really cant remember, if this applied to ver.1 and ver2.0.

An addition: After Mahatatain's post yesterday, I got aware, that I used a false interpretation of the rules all these years. Off course, the skill: Autogun should be used, because it is an automatic weapon. I allways used the Small Arms (Rifle) skill for tasks with battle rifles, assault rifles, and MPs/submachineguns. Autogun is reserved for heavy MGs and autocannons (I let the players chose, when they fire a medium MG. In this case they may use the skill that is higher.). This was a mistake, but still it worked, because most PCs have a higher skill in small arms, than they have in Autogun. I believe, I will stick to my wrong interpretation of the rules.

I've always gone with if the weapon uses a box or internal magazine, it uses Small Arms (rifel) and if it's belt fed or over .50 caliber, it uses Autogun.

[Michael Lewis]

Thanks Targan. I'll certainly give those a look.

[James Langham]

I think the two rule systems are actually trying to model different ways of firing (as did 1st ed).

My thoughts on what they model:

1st ed: A system that put the emphasis on aiming at the target.

2nd ed: the "militia" school of automatic weapon fire was modelled - i.e. pump enough rounds at something and you will hit it or at least interfer with what they are doing.

2013: The weapon is pointed fairly closely at the target and number of rounds used to replace fine aiming.

Depending on what you are firing and what your aim is, all of these could be used by the same person with the same weapon! My solution that I have been using are attached (plus some thoughts on weapon reliability which are still draft).

[Jason]

Originally Posted by Cdnwolf

Yes, Targan, tell us about these rules.


V2.2 (which I am running) has a confusing burst rule... if i get it right someone firing all five burst in one turn with an AKM (recoil 7) has to take (35 minus your strength) dice loss per burst... so someone with a strength of 8 would have to lose 27 dice when only firing 25... even at short range that brings it down to only 5 dice out of 25 hitting (minimum 1 dice rule)

Plus all automatic weapons are fired at the impossible difficulty level (.25) so even with a skill of 8 and a strength of 8 (total skill 16/4) would mean they would hit on a 4 or less ... almost impossible... and unrealistic

I like the 2.2 burst rules. If you look at statistics for number of rounds fired vs. hits obtained in combat, I think you will find out that hitting someone with autofire in T2K v2.2 is probably way too easy. I have seen stats indicating that it takes about 250,000 round to kill one insurgent in Iraq.

Now, there is a vast difference in the intensity of fire in T2K vs. a stand-up war like Iraq, where many rounds would be fired to suppress the enemy. However, most studies suggest that autofire is pretty damn ineffective in scoring hits on the enemy when the number of rounds fired is examined.

[stg58fal]

Originally Posted by Jason

I like the 2.2 burst rules. If you look at statistics for number of rounds fired vs. hits obtained in combat, I think you will find out that hitting someone with autofire in T2K v2.2 is probably way too easy. I have seen stats indicating that it takes about 250,000 round to kill one insurgent in Iraq.

The problem with those kind of statistics is that they only state rounds expended, NOT the manner in which they were. Also, most don't differentiate between small arms, autocannon, or even artillery. A lot of those 'statistics' from the Vietnam war, for example, 'round' meant 'round', regardless of whether it was from an M16, the F4 Phantom's cannon, or naval gunfire.

So when an AC-130 comes by and fires off most of it's weapon's load to kill 4 guys, you're looking at what, about a 5000:1 ratio of rounds expended to targets hit? At the small unit level, suppressive fire, say against enemy in a building or dug in, contributes to the high ratio too. It would be WAY too much of a pain in the ass to do, but I'm betting if someone were to separate out all the garbage, and only concentrate on burst fire at targets that could actually be seen, you'd see that the ratio of shots fired to hits scored is probably a lot better than the numbers that always get thrown around.

[James Langham]

Worth remembering that most fire is not actually AT an enemy but in the GENERAL area.

[HorseSoldier]

Recently reading Blackhorse Riders which talks about mad minutes in night defensive positions -- several times a night, at random points, all the machine guns in an armored cav troop would open up on the jungle for a minute or so. No targets involved, the idea was to break up any forming attack and generally discourage VC/NVA approach to the unit. (Rules of engagement have certainly changed . . .). Anyway, that's not even suppressive fire and was routine back then -- and is also part of those 250K to 1 round/casualty ratios from Vietnam.

[Adm.Lee]

Hitting stuff in v2 or 2.2 with autofire is even harder that I think you indicated-- half of the misses that might get rolled at those standing nearby does not include the shots that aren't rolled for recoil. So in the example above, with the guy firing off most of the magazine in his AKM, gets 5 rolls at 4- to hit, and then half of what's left.

I've been reducing it even further, due to rules confusion. If range and recoil reduce the number of rolls, then it's down to 1 roll only beyond Short range for the above example.

It's something I haven't been happy with, but there it is.

Using a light MG or SAW on a bipod or tripod can generate huge amounts of rolls, if your character is super-strong. In my summer game, there was a kid playing who had a 10 Strength, an M249 SAW, and maxed-out Small Arms (rifle). He could fire 50 shots and get 42 rolls at Short range, at 4- to hit. He put down a lot of bad guys.

[Cdnwolf]

Another way to visualize it is to think about how you play a FPS game like Call of Duty or Halo. I usually never "rock n roll" but limit my shooting to 3 to 5 round burst before switching targets. I always go for headshots too.