4th ed T2K

[mpipes]

Rainbow Six....you might want to do something about your files link.

As to those that like Chinese porn or gambling (it seems to have both) or just a good chuckle; click away!!!

[Rainbow Six]

Bugger. Thanks for the heads up. My hosting company stopped offering hosting a while ago and I never got round to updating my sig. Have amended it.

[Silent Hunter UK]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Indeed!

To our UK members, does v4 make the UK a more interesting potential campaign setting than earlier versions do?

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You got rid of the football hooligan gangs, so that's something.

[comped]

As much as it might sound ridiculous, and the past several months not withstanding, at least the UK pavilion at Epcot has British workers...

Somehow the few that are left are migrating between there and the Canadian pavilion, depending on what they feel like, at least according to the ones I talked to on Sunday. Some kind of strange Commonwealth exemption Disney gave them for manpower purposes, right now it's supposed to only be Americans staffing non-american pavilions if there aren't any people from the actual country.

I have no idea if the author of the particular section is British but he is getting torn apart to shreds on the official FL forums...

[Raellus]

I think it's interesting/curious that in v4's The World At War some of the SSR's cleave off the Soviet Union and some don't. For example, the Baltic states do, but Ukraine does not. How about the Caucuses republics and all of the 'Stans?

There's no explanation given, that I've found, so I suppose they're leaving it up to Ref interpretation.

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[comped]

Sorry to double post, but I just wanted to give an example of what is being said about the UK situation, by the official author of said section, on the official forums...

In Northern Ireland, I didn’t bother calling the IRA the Provisionals because there was no need to confuse the various Irish Republican movements at that time (INLA, the Continuity IRA, Real IRA, Oglaigh nah Eireann, Clann na Gael etc) when most readers get what we mean by the IRA (and in fact PIRA had two ceasefires and the Good Friday Agreement in that time so arguably either CIRA or RIRA could have taken advantage and led the Irish Republican movement in that moment (accepting that the GFA probably didn’t happen in this timeline, but PIRA was still on ceasefire). In a longer piece, with the space to expand, it would be potentially interesting to delve more deeply into this, but for this short piece there just wasn’t the space.

The Good Friday agreement was not agreed to until 1998. As far as I have read, there is no mention of the Good Friday agreement in the timeline. That is a basic googleable fact. The timeline diverges in 1991, there is seven years difference between them. Also it is fairly important to mention, at least to someone who has a grasp of Northern Irish politics and history like myself, that there's a huge difference between the PIRA and many of the other groups he mentioned, and that kind of detail is absolutely necessary if you want to have a game with Northern Ireland even acting in the periphery, so a game set in Wales or Cornwall or Scotland, or even the republic. never mind that there's no reason why they would reasonably uphold a ceasefire in the middle of the Cold War going hot, with their best chance in years to do anything meaningful. If there wasn't the space to be specific enough, and in my opinion if you're going to write about something that needs specifics you should probably make sure there's specifics involved, then why print it at all?

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Although I too have some issues with the new backstory, I don't think hyperbole and name-calling is helpful or even merited. This is an Alpha, and if enough folks offer CONSTRUCTIVE criticism of certain problematic aspects of the project, they might get fixed.

IMHO, some folks are reading a bit much into the bit of the backstory regarding the failure of NATO's Operation Reset offensive (unless I'm missing a more detailed description of said op somewhere else in the Alpha). It seems to me that the authors were deliberately vague in order to leave room for Ref interpretation. One is free to interpret it as "NATO is effectively destroyed and running for the hills", OR one can interpret it more conservatively (closer to what happens to the Summer 2000 offensive described in v's 1 & 2).

Also, I think some people miss the entire point of the game- that player parties are supposed to be cut off and on their own. T2k is not a wargame. It's a military ROLE PLAYING GAME.

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What part of “all the divisions involved in Reset were overrun and their survivors running for the woods” was unclear? That’s eight Corps including the entire Polish Army overrun and the survivors running for their lives. I have read a lot of military history and that pretty much is a destroyed NATO and Soviets Uber Alles situation - that is not in any way close to V1 or V2.2 - we aren’t just talking the 5th here - we are talking every division in the Secret handout.

And this is very late in the war - this isn’t a situation like where units were overrun in Korea in V1 - this is the last gasp the last effort - ie there isn’t anyone left to stop the Soviets

Sorry but that is utter BS - and one other big question - where are the hundreds of thousands of reinforcements that the US put together - are you telling me the Soviets killed them all or most of them in the big naval battle? Because there isn’t a lot of fighting between the supposed huge naval battle and Reset

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Olefin

What part of “all the divisions involved in Reset were overrun and their survivors running for the woods” was unclear? That’s eight Corps including the entire Polish Army overrun and the survivors running for their lives.

Repost from #152:

"In the end, the NATO divisions of Operation Reset are overrun, survivors fleeing into the woods. The final order from HQ is short and to the point: “Good luck. You’re on your own now.”"

p. 148 v4 Player's Manual (Alpha Version)

I still think this is vague enough to allow Ref's room for interpretation. It doesn't say "destroyed" or "annihilated" or "wiped out". "Overrun" doesn't necessarily mean any of these things. Several US divisions could be described as having been overrun during the Battle of the Bulge, but organized elements of said continued to fight on. German divisions on the eastern front during the later years of WWII were routinely overrun, but many broke out of Soviet pockets and fought their way back to German lines, sometimes over and over again.

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[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Repost from #152:

"In the end, the NATO divisions of Operation Reset are overrun, survivors fleeing into the woods. The final order from HQ is short and to the point: “Good luck. You’re on your own now.”"

p. 148 v4 Player's Manual (Alpha Version)

I still think this is vague enough to allow Ref's room for interpretation. It doesn't say "destroyed" or "annihilated" or "wiped out". "Overrun" doesn't necessarily mean any of these things. Several US divisions could be described as having been overrun during the Battle of the Bulge, but organized elements of said continued to fight on. German divisions on the eastern front during the later years of WWII were routinely overrun, but many broke out of Soviet pockets and fought their way back to German lines, sometimes over and over again.

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From the Secret Handout

5th Infantry Division’s avenue of advance from LESZNO to LODZ along
route RED is bounded on the right (south) flank by the III US Corps main elements, including 2nd Armored Division and 1st Cavalry Division (main body of III US Corps advance to LUBLIN) with 3rd ACR in reserve. 29th and 34thinfantry divisions are advancing further south on their right flank, along the Czech and Slovak borders, toward KRAKOW.
(S/NATO) 5th Infantry Division’s avenue of advance from LESZNO to LODZ is bounded on the left (north) flank by elements of I German Corps (1st and 7th Panzer Divisions, 11th Panzergrenadier Division, and 27th Fallschirmjaeger Brigade) and the
Polish Warsaw Corps advancing from POZNAN to WARSAW.

They are supported by I Netherlands Corps in reserve. On their left (north), I UK Corps and the Polish Pomeranian Corps are to move from SZCZECIN to surround and bypass GDANSK and then move to occupy BIALYSTOK with I Belgian Corps in reserve holding the perimeter around GDANSK.

(S/NATO) Note that current end-strength of the units designated as divisions
is approximately equivalent to one brigade of vehicles and heavy equipment (including artillery) and few or no air assets. Personnel strength for most units is about 50% of nominal end-strength for the peacetime unit size. Corps strengths are similarly reduced to the approximate strength of a full-strength division. All units under OPERATION RESET have been reinforced and resupplied to the maximum amount available by EUCOM/LANDCEN

Ok so the Soviets overran all those forces and the survivors went running for the woods? Suuuurree - that is flat out ridiculous

Per their own handout you are talking about eight Corps that in total are the size of full pre-war divisions, with the divisions making them being approximately the size of a brigade in size and at half strength - i.e. this isnt the 1000 man divisions of V1 and V2.2.

Basically its the end of NATO - this isnt the death of a Division - this is the death of NATO as a fighting force -again this is Soviets Uber Alles and they win the war - which definitely 100% is not what V1 and V2.2 in any way were - not at Kalisz

Frankly this timeline and background is a goat screw.

I know people were hungry for the new edition - but unless you are someone who cheered the Soviets on in Red Dawn I doubt this will be well received by anyone as anything they can build a campaign on.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Ok so the Soviets overran all those forces and the survivors went running for the woods? Suuuurree - that is flat out ridiculous

Per their own handout you are talking about eight Corps that in total are the size of full pre-war divisions, with the divisions making them being approximately the size of a brigade in size and at half strength - i.e. this isnt the 1000 man divisions of V1 and V2.2.

Basically its the end of NATO - this isnt the death of a Division - this is the death of NATO as a fighting force -again this is Soviets Uber Alles and they win the war - which definitely 100% is not what V1 and V2.2 in any way were - not at Kalisz

Frankly this timeline and background is a goat screw.

I know people were hungry for the new edition - but unless you are someone who cheered the Soviets on in Red Dawn I doubt this will be well received by anyone as anything they can build a campaign on.

Repost #2:

I still think this is vague enough to allow Ref's room for interpretation. It doesn't say "destroyed" or "annihilated" or "wiped out". "Overrun" doesn't necessarily mean any of these things. Several US divisions could be described as having been overrun during the Battle of the Bulge*, but organized elements of said continued to fight on. German divisions on the eastern front during the later years of WWII were routinely overrun, but many broke out of Soviet pockets and fought their way back to German lines, sometimes over and over again.

*... and "fleeing into the woods." Some of those overrun divisions were rallied, hastily reorganized and reinforced, and put right back into the fight.

If you want to interpret, "In the end, the NATO divisions of Operation Reset are overrun, survivors fleeing into the woods...” as the absolute worst-case scenario, you're free to do so, but I don't see anything in the Alpha rules that states one has to interpret the above the way you have.

And again, the whole point of the backstory is to arrive at a "Good luck. You're on your own..." point where the military-themed survival role-playing game can begin. T2k is not a strategic war game- it never was.

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[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

Which designer was it? The lead (Tomas Härenstam) hasn't used his Facebook page in like 9 years.

Not doubting you, but I am genuinely curious, and Mr. Härenstam is the only designer of T2k listed on Free League's webpage.

I saw a number of names pop up on the draft docs. Tomas is best described as the lead designer, certainly not the only one.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Raellus

They've made significant changes from earlier versions, and then toned it down again, so now it's set in stone? I don't quite follow that line of reasoning.

Plus, this time, they're soliciting feedback from all of the KS backers, not just a select few. Might that have a little more weight than small group that got an exclusive sneak peek?-

It was far more than a sneak peek. We were encouraged to actively contribute and then our suggestions either ignored of given only the slightest attention. In some cases there were glaring issues raised and all that happened was changing of a word or two with the core problem remaining.

This was in a period where there were supposed to be broad changes made to the foundations of the background. You really think they're going to do anything significant now? All that will happen now is tweaks to layout, spelling, and MAYBE a few names here and there.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Repost #2:

I still think this is vague enough to allow Ref's room for interpretation. It doesn't say "destroyed" or "annihilated" or "wiped out". "Overrun" doesn't necessarily mean any of these things. Several US divisions could be described as having been overrun during the Battle of the Bulge*, but organized elements of said continued to fight on. German divisions on the eastern front during the later years of WWII were routinely overrun, but many broke out of Soviet pockets and fought their way back to German lines, sometimes over and over again.

*... and "fleeing into the woods." Some of those overrun divisions were rallied, hastily reorganized and reinforced, and put right back into the fight.

If you want to interpret, "In the end, the NATO divisions of Operation Reset are overrun, survivors fleeing into the woods...” as the absolute worst-case scenario, you're free to do so, but I don't see anything in the Alpha rules that states one has to interpret the above the way you have.

And again, the whole point of the backstory is to arrive at a "Good luck. You're on your own..." point where the military-themed survival role-playing game can begin. T2k is not a strategic war game- it never was.

-

I beg to differ - RDF Sourcebook and Kings Ransom are both set up for those who want to do straight war games and playing in an organized military setting - as is the East Africa Sourcebook. Thus it can be played as a strategic war game. And there are those who have used the rules to play units during the war itself - thus again it can be used - especially if you use The Last Battle rules to do so.

As to to the destroyed part - made direct comments on the dropbox comments so will see what they say - but there are other references that basically show the remaining US forces as scattered in Europe - i.e. there are no organized US units left - while the Soviets clearly still have an organized army and military

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

It was far more than a sneak peek. We were encouraged to actively contribute and then our suggestions either ignored of given only the slightest attention. In some cases there were glaring issues raised and all that happened was changing of a word or two with the core problem remaining.

This was in a period where there were supposed to be broad changes made to the foundations of the background. You really think they're going to do anything significant now? All that will happen now is tweaks to layout, spelling, and MAYBE a few names here and there.

Well, I don't know. I've been hearing hints of this "sneak peek" for a while now but I don't really know what to make of it. Call me overly cynical, but I'm always a bit leery of "I can't tell you anything about it, but trust me on this..." [secret knowledge] type hints and allegations stuff. And you yourself wrote,

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Believe me though, this is MUCH better than it was in earlier versions!

And yes, I imagine that if enough KS backers chime in with constructive criticism, it might lead to some change. I mean, if a hundred people poke holes in the game world history, it might have more of an impact than when a select, mostly anonymous few did. Then again, you could be right and I could be wrong.

My point is, I don't see the point in bitching and moaning about something that isn't necessarily set in stone. I doubt it will do much good. I'd rather try to stimulate change through constructive means and official channels, than rant and rave about it on a fan site.

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[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

It was far more than a sneak peek. We were encouraged to actively contribute and then our suggestions either ignored of given only the slightest attention. In some cases there were glaring issues raised and all that happened was changing of a word or two with the core problem remaining.

This was in a period where there were supposed to be broad changes made to the foundations of the background. You really think they're going to do anything significant now? All that will happen now is tweaks to layout, spelling, and MAYBE a few names here and there.

I also had a ton of comments with Tomas and Marc - and got flat out ignored by them and told that what was leaked wasnt the reality of what the game would be -
I have direct quotes that say basically said that what was leaked was totally inaccurate as to the timeline, background, war and campaign start situation - and then out comes the Alpha and it backs up the leaked material - and if anything its worse

and refs can ignore anything they like - but the war and timeline and background is canon if its not changed and would have to be used by anyone writing for the 4th edition - and frankly as stated before its a goat screw - and at this point I doubt Tomas will be listening to anyone even with them getting ripped a new one on FB, here and discord. After all he hasnt been listening to anyone so far.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Raellus

My point is, I don't see the point in bitching and moaning about something that isn't necessarily set in stone. I doubt it will do much good. I'd rather try to stimulate change through constructive means and official channels, than rant and rave about it on a fan site.

There's some merit in that. I think by this stage though, it will be what it will be.

On the plus side for me personally, I had very low expectations for it from the start, so it's not like I'm going to end up disappointed. And we have, what, 4 other T2K rules sets to choose from, and can pick and choose whatever groovy morsels do arrive in the new version for our own current and future campaigns.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Well, I don't know. I've been hearing hints of this "sneak peek" for a while now but I don't really know what to make of it. Call me overly cynical, but I'm always a bit leery of "I can't tell you anything about it, but trust me on this..." [secret knowledge] type hints and allegations stuff. And you yourself wrote,

And yes, I imagine that if enough KS backers chime in with constructive criticism, it might lead to some change. I mean, if a hundred people poke holes in the game world history, it might have more of an impact than when a select, mostly anonymous few did. Then again, you could be right and I could be wrong.

My point is, I don't see the point in bitching and moaning about something that isn't necessarily set in stone. I doubt it will do much good. I'd rather try to stimulate change through constructive means and official channels, than rant and rave about it on a fan site.

-

the sneak peek and the Alpha as far as the players manual as it pertains to the war, the background, the timeline are basically the same - it was leaked material and the minute I saw it I was like oh crap - and the so called denials that I got werent worth the electrons that were used

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Targan

There's some merit in that. I think by this stage though, it will be what it will be.

On the plus side for me personally, I had very low expectations for it from the start, so it's not like I'm going to end up disappointed. And we have, what, 4 other T2K rules sets to choose from, and can pick and choose whatever groovy morsels do arrive in the new version for our own current and future campaigns.

We need to tell Tomas that this is unacceptable - and frankly people crowing about the "artwork" five minutes after it was out and not even reading the rules and the actual game background show that they werent serious potential players

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Targan

And we have, what, 4 other T2K rules sets to choose from, and can pick and choose whatever groovy morsels do arrive in the new version for our own current and future campaigns.

If there aren't any changes to the v4 backstory, then I probably won't use it as is, but I like the way that you're looking at it, and that's probably how I'm going to look at it too.

Originally Posted by Olefin

We need to tell Tomas that this is unacceptable - and frankly people crowing about the "artwork" five minutes after it was out and not even reading the rules and the actual game background show that they werent serious potential players

Yes, but why would they listen to people ranting about "antifa Soviet fan-boys" either? Seriously?

I understand that you are frustrated that they didn't listen to you when you were a secret advisor or whatever (I'm really curious about that whole arrangement), but that doesn't mean that Tomas et al won't listen to the rest of us.

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[Louied]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

There are often misconceptions about the TA's role in T2K. That may be because the original V1 British order of battle was a complete work of fiction in that it completely ignored the TA and appeared to have been written by someone who had zero knowledge of their role / structure (IRL the TA would have formed the bulk of the 2nd UK Division and would have also rounded out other Divisions in the same way that US National Guard Brigades rounded out Regular Divisions). Or it may be because at the end of the Cold War the TA's role changed so it can sometimes take a bit of digging to get to the Cold War period.

The TA in this period was split. Some units did have a home defence role, but others were tasked with reinforcing BAOR. LouieD is more of an authority on this than I am and can correct me if I'm wrong but off the top of my head, the split was something like 75% to BAOR vs 25% UK Home defence (both of those figures include support as well as combat units).

From memory there were something like 14 TA Infantry Battalions and 2/3 Light Recon Regiments (each equivalent to a Battalion and equipped with Land Rovers) allocated to home defence - roughly one per civil defence area plus a couple of spares. There would have probably also one Regular Brigade tasked to home defence, probably based in the London area and mostly made up of Guards Battalions. The TA have no training role - that would have been down to the Regular Army.

Also, there was an attempt to recreate the Home Guard in the early 1980's - it was called the Home Service Force, and numbered approx 5000 men in approx 50 Platoons across the UK at its peak.

As some of you know in the past I've spent many hours working on a realistic (and non canon) T2K timeline for the UK. I've read the new timeline (briefly) and the section on the UK. I find the idea of a Soviet invasion of the UK fanciful and will be ignoring it going forward but I do not think it's Alien Space Bats territory. If I really had to rationalise it I'd posit it the same way as Division Cuba in V1 - a Division sized unit (7th Guards Air Assault according to the UK write up) secures a toehold, HMG is unable to assemble the forces to kerb stomp them, and the Soviets end up securing a town (or maybe a County) - it's basically the Group of Soviet Forces England in the V1 SGUK on a larger scale.

Other than that, while I appreciate it's only a few paragraphs, I don't think they've done too bad a job with the UK setting. There's room for improvement for sure (even with no help from the mainland I rather doubt the IRA would be able to hold their own against the RUC and the UDR without overt military support from the Irish Republic) but it's certainly an improvement on the V1 Survivor's Guide to the UK (although that is admittedly a pretty low bar - at least they didn't have the Queen abdicating). The Cornish Independence angle is plausible.

Rainbow is spot on, the bulk (for instance 26 of the 40 TA Inf Bns had NATO commitments) of the TA would be going across the Channel on TTW. Plans were very detailed (I have even found documents in the NA showing that plans were being drawn up in the late 1980's to blow the Channel Tunnels which had just started being built !). My co-authors and myself are currently engaged in fleshing out UKLF, besides the 47 HSF Coys, there were 175 HD Res Coys, 14 TA Bns, and 17 Regular Bns committed to Home Defence. Not to mention the whole 7,000 plus UDR would be placed on active service in NI......

If anyone needs more detail I will start a new thread (and I'll try to be short....)

[mpipes]

I managed to look at the draft.

I am with Olefin on a lot of the criticisms. THE ART WORK IS AWSOME.....but....

The background does not look that bad to me. Very sparse on details, leaving to Referees to fill in the blanks. Not terrible, but not that great. A bit too Swedish centrist to my taste for PC generation. My biggest gripe is the complete ignoring of the Central European military. You need a bit of flavor for German, Danish, UK, Czech, and Slovak forces. Italy and Hungary would be a good idea as well. I much prefer the overall wider sweep of forces in the GDW versions. However, this may be planned for rectifying in later modules. At the very least, the background and character generation should include the afore mentioned militaries and a least some German and UK units mentioned (and maybe a few Pole, Slovak, and Czech units here and there). Also, who are the Soviet allies? None???

A lot of the rules look like crap to me with the entire underlying character attributes and skill ratings looking clunky not to mention weapon ratings and vehicle stats. Vehicle and weapons need to be expanded.

Say what you will about the GDW editions, but their attributes, skills, and rating are far more straightforward and intuitive. The rules need to stick to kilogram weights and meter weapon ranges, speeds, and movements.

UNFORGIVEABLE: The Swedish focus given the lack of anything on NATO or PACT forces/PCs etc. I understand why its there but really; exactly what are the chances of encountering Swedish Army troops (or equipment) in Central Europe versus any NATO or PACT forces (or any equipment)?? That just needs to be fixed.

ALSO MY EYES ARE BURNING!!!!
A RPD picture is shown for the PKM. That's like an entry for a lion and then showing a picture of a bobcat. I'm sorry, but that is just plain sloppy!!!

And the guys obviously don't know beans about hunting. You don't need to use a shotgun on grouse or any bird. It darn well makes things easier, but if you are good enough (and my uncle is) you can shoot grouse or ducks out of the sky with a rifle. On the other hand, they do know about grenade fishing; I tip my hat to that!!

<sigh>

[Lurken]

Soviets have zero allies.

Sweden has things vanishing. The entire government+parliament goes =POOOF= behind friendly lines when going somewhere else instead of their designated bunker shortly after the war begins.

An entire Mechanized division goes =POOF= in the woodland s of Småland one week after invasion. Zero traces of anyone from that division or anything from that division.

Gotland going =POOF=, as in no one knows what is going on there. Absolutely no one.

Also, Rainbow, my name is listed in the Playtesters. We were invited to give criticisms and suggestion. I can vet Leg, he was there too.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Lurken

Also, Rainbow, my name is listed in the Playtesters. We were invited to give criticisms and suggestion. I can vet Leg, he was there too.

Thanks, but I think it was Raellus that was querying that side of things. Certainly wasn’t me.

[mpipes]

Lurken,

I certainly don't want to criticize the playtesters, but.....

Did you guys buy off on the weapon and vehicle rating system?

Character attributes?

These mechanics seem wildly messy to me and not intuitive at all, but I grew up in the old style D&D and SPI era, so maybe I am just damaged goods in a sense.

Does anybody think they are good? Or an improvement over V 1 or 2.2?

[Legbreaker]

I focused more on the background. The rules gave me a headache just thinking about them.

[Lurken]

Originally Posted by mpipes

Lurken,

I certainly don't want to criticize the playtesters, but.....

Did you guys buy off on the weapon and vehicle rating system?

Character attributes?

These mechanics seem wildly messy to me and not intuitive at all, but I grew up in the old style D&D and SPI era, so maybe I am just damaged goods in a sense.

Does anybody think they are good? Or an improvement over V 1 or 2.2?

The system was done as it was. I did point out some bits that I found wonky. But didn't get listened to. The Weapons... I didn't even look there. Couldn't be arsed. I cared about the story. Because, you can play T2k with any system. It lives with the world and setting, not the rules.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Lurken

It lives with the world and setting, not the rules.

Exactly right. There's many instances over the last nearly 4 decades T2K has existed where people have used alternate mechanics. The setting is the game.

What we have been presented with, that's not T2k when looked at from that perspective. Lurken and I did our best, but it seemed their minds were already made up. The overall situation was set in stone and all our comments and suggestions amounted to a few minor tweaks here and there. Fortunately we were able to talk them out of some of the REALLY bad ideas, but, as can be seen, by no means anything close to all.

It wasn't just the two of us though, there were others who will remain anonymous until they choose to speak up. Suffice to say the community did speak, but it seems our voices fell on, if not deaf ears, certainly ones hard of hearing.

[Rockwolf66]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

It was far more than a sneak peek. We were encouraged to actively contribute and then our suggestions either ignored of given only the slightest attention. In some cases there were glaring issues raised and all that happened was changing of a word or two with the core problem remaining.

As someone who did see draft information, We did complain about the timeline and how pro-Soviet it was and got told that we were looking at "Outdated information" and that the finished project would not reflect "current politics in any way".

This is lies because President West is a warmongering Idiot who embodies multiple Leftist stereotypes of Republican Politicians.

As such I hope to get the game used as not to give them a dime for it.

[Silent Hunter UK]

How is West a warmonger? He wasn't the guy who invaded Poland.

[Lurken]

Originally Posted by Silent Hunter UK

He wasn't the guy who invaded Poland.

Perhaps not. But he is the one who launched nukes on Soviet forces after USSR didn't nuke Israel after they nuked NUAR.