Out of Mothballs: Obsolescent Weaponry on the T2k Battlefield

[Ursus Maior]

Oh, basically what Olefin said. I think, we're reading the same source.

[rcaf_777]

"To join the Atholl Highlanders, an invitation must be made from the Duke, who specially selects people with ties to the estate or the local area."

https://blair-castle.co.uk/scottish-...ade-gathering/

The 10th Duke of Atholl died on 27th February 1996. His funeral was held in the ballroom of Blair Castle. After the service, six Highlanders acted as pallbearers, others provided the carriage party and lined the route to the Castle graveyard at Old Blair.

It was feared that the regiment would be disbanded following the 10th Duke’s death in 1996, until his successor, JOHN MURRAY, 11TH DUKE OF ATHOLL, wrote to the estate trustees accepting an invitation to continue his traditional role.

[Raellus]

The design process on the T-10 began in 1944. It was officially retired from service in 1996.

https://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/c.../ussr/T-10.php

They were allocated to independent tank battalions.

According to Wikipedia, "It is estimated that some 6,000 Soviet heavy tanks were built after the end of World War II, of which 1,439 were T-10s."

Presumably, most of the others were JS-3's, mentioned up-thread.

-

[chico20854]

Originally Posted by Raellus

The design process on the T-10 began in 1944. It was officially retired from service in 1996.

https://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/c.../ussr/T-10.php

They were allocated to independent tank battalions.

According to Wikipedia, "It is estimated that some 6,000 Soviet heavy tanks were built after the end of World War II, of which 1,439 were T-10s."

Presumably, most of the others were JS-3's, mentioned up-thread.

-

In the 1980s T-10s were assigned to mobilization only tank divisions in the Southwest TVD. Presumably in the 90s they would either have remained there or been shuffled off to even lower priority M-O divisions, such as those in Western Siberia. (For example, the 80th TD, which fielded a mix of JS-3's and T-34/85s https://www.ww2.dk/new/army/td/80td.htm) Other T-10s (and other JS-3s that hadn't been exported, including to Syria and Egypt) were emplaced in fortified areas, including the Kuriles, the Chinese border and in the Caucasus.

Bear's Den mentions one outside the nuked remains of the Transcarpathian Military District HQ, it's barrel melted to the ground.

Overall, a T-10 is not much to worry about if you have a Leopard II or even M-60, but certainly enough to ruin your day if you're running around the woods with nothing heavier than a LAW!

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Raellus

The design process on the T-10 began in 1944. It was officially retired from service in 1996.

From the side, it looks sort of like a lengthened T-62, except for that suspension.

[Raellus]

If it's coming back in 2022, it'd be back in T2k.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...-reserve-units

-

[chico20854]

Originally Posted by Raellus

If it's coming back in 2022, it'd be back in 2000.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...-reserve-units

-

I guess they're regretting this then!

I'm wondering what happened to this cache. In a T2k situation that's enough small arms to equip every mobilization-only division in the Soviet Army a couple times over. And you have to wonder if there were similar stockpiles scattered around other places in the USSR. Given the flood of Mosins, Mausers and other Second World War small arms into the US civilian gun market over the past 25-30 years it seems that there probably were.

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by chico20854

I guess they're regretting this then!

I'm wondering what happened to this cache. In a T2k situation that's enough small arms to equip every mobilization-only division in the Soviet Army a couple times over. And you have to wonder if there were similar stockpiles scattered around other places in the USSR. Given the flood of Mosins, Mausers and other Second World War small arms into the US civilian gun market over the past 25-30 years it seems that there probably were.

With regards to rearming the Soviet Army, I would think that depended on the proportion of 1990s-era Kalashnikovs to 1910s-era sabres and tachankas. The Maxims could still be useful since the same ammunition is still in use (as long as appropriate belts were available), but even if horses come back into fashion, I don't think men armed with just swords are going to be very effective.

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by chico20854

I guess they're regretting this then!

I have several thousand rounds of Ukrainian 5.45mm that was considered surplus around that time. I wonder if they'd like those Spam cans back...

- C.

[Raellus]

Anti-tank guns aren't necessarily "antique" weapons, but by the mid-to-late 1990s, most modern militaries had moved on from them and were employing ATGMs, exclusively, to do the job.

It's 2022 and Ukraine needs all of the AT capability it can muster. They're dusting off another oldie-but-goody,

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...anti-tank-guns

I've done some research on AT guns for T2k (I think they'd be back in widespread by year 2 of the Twilight War), but somehow I missed that this one has a radar to see through smoke and dust on the battlefield.

-

[Ursus Maior]

Yepp, the "R" is for radar, and it shoots AT-10 Stabber, too, I think. That might be the follow on MT-12K, though. Anyway, the big issue remains that AT guns are vulnerable to artillery and the Russians will bring a lot of that.

By the way, Russia has now stationed 100 of its batallion tactical groups along the Ukrainian border, a figurehead separatist in Donbass just called for 30.000 Russian troops to help his forces out "against Ukrainian aggressions" and some of the Russian troops are sleeping in tents. On Thursday a maneuver with Belarus is going to start.

We'll know what's coming by Sunday, I think.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Anti-tank guns aren't necessarily "antique" weapons, but by the mid-to-late 1990s, most modern militaries had moved on from them and were employing ATGMs, exclusively, to do the job.

It's 2022 and Ukraine needs all of the AT capability it can muster. They're dusting off another oldie-but-goody,

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...anti-tank-guns

I've done some research on AT guns for T2k (I think they'd be back in widespread by year 2 of the Twilight War), but somehow I missed that this one has a radar to see through smoke and dust on the battlefield.

-

Do not forget the 2A45 SPRUT(Kraken or Octopus) B towed 125mm AT gun. This is erroneously called the Rapira III in the Twilight rules (Rapira is the name of the cannon which is fitted to a number of tanks and field guns). The Sprut B is a FULLY POWERED MOUNT with a 360-degree rotation (like the 122mm Howitzers can do) that can move limited distances on its own at speeds of up to 15km per hour. It is fitted with a laser designator and ballistic computer allowing it to fire all of the 125mm Missiles and cannon rounds. The later versions augment the passive Night vision sight with thermal imagers. Its powered traverse and elevation allow adjustments of up to 20 degrees per second, compared to hydraulically-assisted manual traversing systems that might hit 5 degrees a second and could NEVER track a fast-moving AFV.
The Russian airborne units even have a "tank destroyer" that mounts this 125mm cannon in an enclosed turret on a BDM (?) air-droppable tracked chassis.

I think I did a write-up of all the AT and Field guns in a threat you started specifically about Field Guns. The Russians do LOVE their "dual-purpose" artillery.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

I think I did a write-up of all the AT and Field guns in a threat you started specifically about Field Guns. The Russians do LOVE their "dual-purpose" artillery.

I'll have to try to find that. I don't remember it, but I'd like to see it.

On a sad note, it looks like Taiwan is finally retiring its Walker Bulldog light tanks.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...an-six-decades

-

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by Raellus

I'll have to try to find that. I don't remember it, but I'd like to see it.

On a sad note, it looks like Taiwan is finally retiring its Walker Bulldog light tanks.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...an-six-decades

-

It was actually Kalos72 who started the thread and it is titled "Mortars and Artillery."

[Raellus]

Meant to post about this last night, but forgot. I was reminded this morning by footage on the news of a Russian separatist firing in the Donetsk region.

Anti-tank rifles, like the the PTRS-41, would make a comeback in the Twilight War. Today, they're often employed as long-range sniper rifles, but more often as anti-materiel weapons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PTRS-41

Obviously, anti-tank rifles are fairly useless against modern AFVs, but they can still do significant damage to soft-skin and light armored vehicles. For example...

In the T2k PbP I play in, two different OPFOR have used anti-tank rifles against the PC's BTR-80 in the last two major firefights, managing to poke a few holes in it, damage the engine, and wound a couple of people.

-

[ChalkLine]

There's a PTRS-41 reticule for the PSO-1 sight (the same as used on the SVD among others)
The PTRS needs a rail fitted and evidently it's a custom side-rail due to the width of the receiver.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by ChalkLine

There's a PTRS-41 reticule for the PSO-1 sight (the same as used on the SVD among others)
The PTRS needs a rail fitted and evidently it's a custom side-rail due to the width of the receiver.

If you get a chance, check out 9-Hole Reviews the YouTube channel. I have the video from him posted in Leg's Video thread that's just below this one. He shoots an AK74 with an RPG-7 optical sight attached to its rail.

[Raellus]

Does anyone know roughly how long explosives in things like land mines remains viable? Is there an expiration date, or does the stuff last forever? Similarly, is there a best-used-by date, after which the explosives become less... explosive (or more unstable, perhaps)?

I reckon it's a good long while, given how carefully unexploded ordinance from WWII is dealt with when an antique air-dropped bomb is discovered during construction or whatever.

-

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Meant to post about this last night, but forgot. I was reminded this morning by footage on the news of a Russian separatist firing in the Donetsk region.

Anti-tank rifles, like the the PTRS-41, would make a comeback in the Twilight War. Today, they're often employed as long-range sniper rifles, but more often as anti-materiel weapons.

The PCs in my last campaign captured a Gepard M3 and loved it.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Does anyone know roughly how long explosives in things like land mines remains viable? Is there an expiration date, or does the stuff last forever? Similarly, is there a best-used-by date, after which the explosives become less... explosive (or more unstable, perhaps)?

I reckon it's a good long while, given how carefully unexploded ordinance from WWII is dealt with when an antique air-dropped bomb is discovered during construction or whatever.

-

It depends on the explosive. We were shooting ordinance from WWII in our howitzers and it went bang every time. I have shot 100-year-old rifle ammo with NO ISSUES.

On the other hand... I have witnessed 20-year-old commercial dynamite "sweating" (leaking nitro from its casing) in Africa. It was so sketchy, that we just put a brick of C4 on it and sent it on its way. I also know that they blow up 20-year-old detonators (the pressure kind you screw into landmines) in the Army. But I have seen 50-year-old Composition B bricks used to demolish a bunker.

The issue with explosives, especially COMMERCIAL EXPLOSIVES, isn't that they won't go "boom," the issue is that they MAY GO BOOM from just being handled!

[Raellus]

Most of our discussion here has focused on land weapon systems. It looks like the Russians are going to dust off some old bi-planes for use in Ukraine.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...war-in-ukraine

To be fair, the North Koreans have never stopped using the AN-2. It's ability to fly low and slow, and it's low-metal use construction make it a somewhat stealthy platform, good for delivering SOF teams behind enemy lines.

-

[Raellus]

Someone posted a link to this 11-minute video on the FB fan page.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYMgYpavdB4

In this video:

Mosin-Nagant
Maxim
DP27
MG42
MP40
PPSh41
PPS-43

There's also an interesting bit about how vehicle-mounted PKT machineguns, which don't have an external trigger mechanism, are being retrofitted with improvised ones by Kiev auto-mechanics for use as infantry GPMGs.

And a couple of newer (non-classic T2k) systems are included as well.

-

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Most of our discussion here has focused on land weapon systems. It looks like the Russians are going to dust off some old bi-planes for use in Ukraine.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...war-in-ukraine

To be fair, the North Koreans have never stopped using the AN-2. It's ability to fly low and slow, and it's low-metal use construction make it a somewhat stealthy platform, good for delivering SOF teams behind enemy lines.

-

In a bit of irony, the Antonov Design Bureau that the An-2 was developed by was based in Kyiv.

[Raellus]

Ironic, indeed.

First introduced in 1950, the AZP S-60 57mm anti-aircraft gun is currently seeing combat in Ukraine, most often against ground targets. It would definitely see a return to duty in the Twilight War.

I can easily imagine a scenario were an AZP S-60 57mm anti-aircraft gun shoots down an AN-2 Colt.

[Raellus]

Is this old-timey canon functional, or just for show? If it's the former, that has to set some sort of out-of-mothballs record.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...int-in-ukraine

-

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Is this old-timey canon functional, or just for show? If it's the former, that has to set some sort of out-of-mothballs record.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...int-in-ukraine

-

Every day Ukraine resembles a Twilight2000 campaign more and more. Europe didn't "demill" their stuff like the US did. That cannon could be operational but I'm betting the Ukrainians put it there (as a scavenged weapon system) and not the Russians.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Is this old-timey canon functional, or just for show? If it's the former, that has to set some sort of out-of-mothballs record.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...int-in-ukraine

-

It looks like a toy. For that matter, the soldier looks like a toy. Note the uniform gray color in the two, and notice the lumpishness. Someone took a joke picture.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

It looks like a toy. For that matter, the soldier looks like a toy. Note the uniform gray color in the two, and notice the lumpishness. Someone took a joke picture.

Could be. I have seen any follow-up either way.

https://www.thedrive.com/news/39228/...ibious-vehicle

I wonder if these massive LARC-LX amphibs might have been dusted off and used in Europe- perhaps to cross the Vistula- during T2k.

Paul, I poked around on your site for this one and didn't find it, but I wasn't sure which category to look in.

-

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Raellus

B]LARC-LX[/B] amphibs might have been dusted off and used in Europe- perhaps to cross the Vistula- during T2k.

-

I didn't do it; it's not on my site. I had to look it up in Bing to find out what it was; ah well, add it to the list. (That's how the Bombers got in there; they were on my list.)

[Raellus]

The OT-810 was basically a lightly modified, Czech-made Sd.Kfz. 251 half-track APC with a Tatra diesel engine. According to Wikipedia, about 1,500 OT-810s were manufactured between 1958-1962, and the last examples weren't removed from Czech army depots until 1995. I imagine they would have seen action during the Twilight War.

-