What is "canon"?

[Jason Weiser]

Ok Leg,
Time to get off the high horse. You want to couch your view on canon or not based on what GDW did, fine. Got no problem with that. But here's where frankly, I am calling you out...when you accuse me, Chico, FF and Law of "forcing" anyone to accept anything we do.

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Everyone is, has been and always will be free to do whatever they wish, as long as their ideas either as individuals or groups is not asserted to be canon.

Since when did ANYTHING we wrote come with a use or else label? Did we have the game police knock down your door? Nope. And who in the hell died and made you keeper of WHAT IS CANON? If Mark Miller or Frank Frey or Loren Wiseman want to weigh in, great. I'll take their word...matter of fact, I know when Mr. Frey saw Law's work on the USMC, he said it was better than what he had originally done for RDF Sourcebook, don't believe me? I can dig up the post.

Leg, want the truth? I think your viceral feelings toward our work have a personal element. Targan isn't nuts about some of what we do, but I have never seen him be as downright nasty as you have been on occasion. Somehow, he can manage to be rather respectful towards everyone on the boards..and you know something else? This is the first damn time I've ever had to lower the boom on a poster on an internet board. Mohrender had it right about you I am afraid. I'm going to say it again, Don't like what we do? Fine, write something yourself that MEETS your standards of what meets T2K and then perhaps, I'd at least see some effort back up your vehemence. Till then, you're all blow and no show.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I like to ask for some temperance here because I truly do not recall Legbreaker claiming that we have been forced to accept the DC groups work.
I'm not saying people shouldn't argue their positions but I get the feeling that more and more water is piling up behind the dam and people are trying to poke the dam wall to see if it will break.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Jason Weiser

...when you accuse me, Chico, FF and Law of "forcing" anyone to accept anything we do.

I hope that your statement is based simply on a misuderstanding and not guilty conscience?

The DC Group obviously puts in a decent amount of hours on their work. The time taken definately shows in the quality of the result. I may not agree with a percentage of what is produced, but I'm still impressed by it. I even use some of it.

I also cannot recall any members of the DC Group directly stating their work is canon, or will be canon. I can however recall others having that impression (obviously incorrectly).

Canon is canon, pure and simple. Don't like what you see? Go change it, publish your own interpretation and open it up to discussion. Don't however try to force your, or anybody elses ideas on the community as a whole with the aim of pushing canon aside. (Note the above is a general statement not aimed any anyone in particular).

Originally Posted by Jason Weiser

...write something yourself that MEETS your standards of what meets T2K and then perhaps, I'd at least see some effort back up your vehemence. Till then, you're all blow and no show.

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?p=3255#post3255
That was my very first post on this site. Based on many hours of close reading of virtually all the canon books, I'd like to think it's a reasonable peice of work. It might not actually BE canon, but it's got to be a reasonable continuation of the base information.

There has been other lengthy posts on a number of subject also. I may not have published a book, or created an alternate timeline (something I'm not interested in anyway), but nearly five hundred posts in about nine months has to mean I'm at least contributing in one way or another.

So why should I need to defend my position?

Canon is, well, canon. Take it or leave it, say what you want about it, just don't force your own opinions and outlook on others (whoever you may be).

And above all, relax!

[Grimace]

Come on fellas. Getting in any sort of point-by-point back and forth arguement is just going to make things worse between people and stink this place up.

Some people are strict "canon" addicts. Others throw "canon" out the window and do what they want. Neither side is EVER going to convince the other that their way is right or that the other side has to recognize their particular viewpoint. Just let people believe and do what they want with the game. If you don't like what some people put out, don't read their stuff.

Just respect that each person is going to have different views. And if you (as in anyone) find you're going to post while the tempers are flared, it's better to simply log off and come back a few hours later after you've calmed down.

[Targan]

I'm with Grimace. Also, from a selfish point of view, I want Kato to start participating on the forum again and I think returning to this dispute will make that less likely to happen. If for no other reason lets tone things down in consideration for the feelings of the man who allows us to participate on this forum in the first place. I miss him.

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by Targan

I'm with Grimace. Also, from a selfish point of view, I want Kato to start participating on the forum again and I think returning to this dispute will make that less likely to happen. If for no other reason lets tone things down in consideration for the feelings of the man who allows us to participate on this forum in the first place. I miss him.

Hm. Well said.

Webstral

[Webstral]

Looking back at the posts around Legbreaker's linked post, it seems that the realism v established system argument has been simmering for more than a year. I missed out on all this during the school year.

Law and others raise a very good point: Twilight: 2000 is so Army-centric that the sister services are practically an afterthought, with the exception of the Marines in general and the RDF Sourcebook in particular. I don't know whether the designers are all Army vets with Vietnam service as was supposed last Fall, but that seems a reasonable hypothesis. Being a Army-centric kind of guy even in 1985 when I discovered Twilight: 2000 (I was 15), I never gave the Army orientation of Twilight: 2000 more than a passing thought. Sure, I sometimes wondered what had become of the USAF and the USN; but I quickly turned my attention back to matters closer to my heart. My service years did surprisingly little to change my basic prejudice.

Equally, Twilight: 2000 is a game, after all. Realism is an important component, but playability is a factor that can't be ignored. Howling Wilderness was brought out specifically to provide players with the kind of ongoing chaos that some players and GMs prefer.

Okay, my better half can't seem to get through the evening without my undivided attention, so I will cut my observations short.

Webstral

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Webstral

Okay, my better half can't seem to get through the evening without my undivided attention, so I will cut my observations short.

Thanks for giving me a laugh out of this otherwise less than happy thread.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Webstral

Sure, I sometimes wondered what had become of the USAF and the USN; but I quickly turned my attention back to matters closer to my heart. My service years did surprisingly little to change my basic prejudice

Who needs an airforce or navy anyway?

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by Jason Weiser

Ok Leg,
Time to get off the high horse. You want to couch your view on canon or not based on what GDW did, fine. Got no problem with that. But here's where frankly, I am calling you out...when you accuse me, Chico, FF and Law of "forcing" anyone to accept anything we do.

Personnally, I like what you write and never felt forced in anyways. As a matter of fact, I don't use your materials and never will (simple, it doesn't fit my own vision of the game). A roleplaying game's atmosphere change with every GM.

Anyway, the only one with a true right to challenge what you do (and what we all do) are the original team and the new one. So far, it seems they appreciate (not really surprising as we all help keeping this great game alive) and as far as everyone is concerned that should be enough.

I understand leg's position toward cannon but, he makes me feel sometimes as if he was the game's owner. Leg, if you are, please say it outloud so we make a church for you. If you're not, just speak your mind with a bit of moderation as there are no T2K's high priest.

As I said, that thread help defend his point.

(Hi hi hi)