What is "canon"?

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Real World events after the 'canon' start-of-war date of 1996 are completely irrelevant to the Twilight: 2000 game.

Arguement can be successfully made to include any real world equipment that was available by 1996 but wasn't included in the books so things like the Russian APS underwater assault rifle are perfectly acceptable. However by the gameworld history as set down by GDW, Germany was still divided up until 1996 and so the G36 should not be included as the G11 was going to be the next rifle for German forces.

If anybody needs a list of what is actual 'canon' material, visit Far Future Enterprises website and see what's on the CD-ROMs for Twilight 1st edition and 2nd edition... anything else is not canon

I agree with the first part (or 1985 if you are playing V1) -- to a point. See my previous post.

As for the second part -- a good amount of weapons programs would have been accelerated as the storm clouds gathered, and during the war, previously overlooked or passed-over projects might have been put into limited production. World War 2 is a good example of this, though I'll grant you that they didn't have to contend with global nuclear strikes. On top of this, we are still finding out about weapons programs the Soviets were working on during the cold war, and after the Wall fell, we discovered a lot of surprising stuff they had. The details of my ideas on this would make too long a post; if anyone wants to know more of my thoughts, email or PM me.

As for the third part -- again, see my previous post.

T2K (not T2K13) is in a way a "dead" system -- no one is publishing anything new for it. WE (and other T2K forums and sites) are now the makers of canon. We are the means by which the T2K progresses. If GDW hadn't gone under, or if Marc Miller had decided to continue the T2K saga, our ideas might have been the driving force behind published T2K. Now, we T2K enthusiasts are the only driving force.

[Mohoender]

Nothing to debate anymore. Paul said it all.

Thanks Paul.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I understand your points but I respectfully disagree. 'Canon' is the material created by the original authors.
If they choose to alter that (such as Twilight 1st edition to 2nd edition), that is their right as the originators of the material.
I am not saying canon doesn't change nor am I saying it should never change.
What I am saying is that if you are not the original author of the material or you do not have the approval of the original author, then you are not producing material that is canon
Whether anyone likes it or not, the people from 93 Games Studio have every right to regard their work as canon material for a third edition of Twilight: 2000 because they actually obtained permission to do so from the people who hold the intellectual property rights.

As I alluded to before, any equipment programmes that originated before the end of 1996 (I must confess that I have never paid much attention to 1st edition as I was introduced to the game through 2nd edition) are all perfectly feasible for inclusion if they fit into the gameworld as described in 'canon'. Anything from after the war was finishing is not really suitable because the world has lost most of its research/development and manufacturing abilities let alone the transportation and organizational ability required to obtain the necessary resources.
Again going to the example of the G36, it was designed in the mid 1990s as a replacement for the failed project to replace the G3 with the G11. By the 'canon' timeline, the G11 was accepted because the events in the gameworld did not replicate events in the real world. Therefore the reasons for creating the G36 do not actually exist within the gameworld.
This is exactly why 'canon' can only compose the original material produced by the author or material that is authorised by the author. Anything else, no matter how fitting or appropriate, is a supplement.

Lets forget about any talk of legal definitions or intellectual property rights here, we are talking about a fundemental principle of acknowledging who produced the original material and exactly what that material is irrespective of if we set about modifying to suit our own tastes.
I cannot simply change the Mona Lisa because I think the painting isn't suitable for modern tastes because her clothes are out of date and then pass it off as the author's original work and as such WE, because we are not the original authors of Twilight: 2000, are not now the makers of canon simply because the timeline is outdated or doesn't fit modern history or because the company who produced it no longer exists.
The Twilight: 2000 canon has already been established by the originators of the material, anything we produce now is a supplement or an alternative and that remains constant regardless of the game being a dead system or not. To claim that something we produce now is canon simply because the game is no longer produced is perilously close to claiming we are the makers of the original product.

[Legbreaker]

Stainless, you have summed up my position and the truth of the matter beautifully!

Canon, plain and simple is what's been produced by the originators, the writers, the designers and publishers. By definition, such works as City of Angels and Twilightcycle: 2000 are not canon (especially the latter), but are still certainly useful additions to any collection.

The same goes for anything we produce. It's not canon, but from what I've seen we've got some damn fine and talented writers and researchers amongst us and nobody should stop doing what they've been doing.

All I ask is that canon be recognised for what it is - the foundation everything else is built upon. As much as we individuals and groups may not like what's been given to us, as a foundation it cannot change, it can only be built upon.

[TiggerCCW UK]

Time for me to don my asbestos pants and dangle my arse over the parapet for some flaming. I missed out on the majority of this argument for a variety of reasons, mostly lack of PC time at the minute. I've always felt that we had a civilised forum here, free of the pissing contests that mark most other forums. I'd like to see a return to that. As far as canon goes I don't think I've ever played a strictly canon game of anything. Every GM changes something to suit their style of game or players. If you don't you'll end up not having fun, and for me anyway fun is what the game is all about. Do what suits your game, but don't piss and moan about what others do with theirs. I would love to have the time and abilities to devote to rewriting everything that I don't agree with, but I don't. I do have a huge amount of respect for others who do, and I will cherry pick ideas as they suit me. I'm sorry if that doesn't conform to peoples expectations, but please don't take this as me taking sides. There are a lot of great parts to the canon, there is also a lot of great homebrew stuff out there. I'll continue to use what I like and what suits my game, end of story. Sorry if I'm pissing on peoples cornflakes, but that's the way I see it. Can we just please get over this, move away from personal attacks and get back to what we do best - fragging marauders, brigands, bandits and dodging those places that glow in the dark. Kato did a great job setting this place up when the old forum shit on us and I feel personally appalled that he felt he could no longer be involved his forum. Let's tone it down and see if we can get the big guy back again. At the end of the day its only a game.

Now feel free to toast me to a crisp

[Targan]

Originally Posted by TiggerCCW UK

Now feel free to toast me to a crisp

Can't do it, too great was the wisdom in your words. You spake true.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by TiggerCCW UK

Time for me to don my asbestos pants and dangle my arse over the parapet for some flaming. I missed out on the majority of this argument for a variety of reasons, mostly lack of PC time at the minute. I've always felt that we had a civilised forum here, free of the pissing contests that mark most other forums. I'd like to see a return to that. As far as canon goes I don't think I've ever played a strictly canon game of anything. Every GM changes something to suit their style of game or players. If you don't you'll end up not having fun, and for me anyway fun is what the game is all about. Do what suits your game, but don't piss and moan about what others do with theirs. I would love to have the time and abilities to devote to rewriting everything that I don't agree with, but I don't. I do have a huge amount of respect for others who do, and I will cherry pick ideas as they suit me. I'm sorry if that doesn't conform to peoples expectations, but please don't take this as me taking sides. There are a lot of great parts to the canon, there is also a lot of great homebrew stuff out there. I'll continue to use what I like and what suits my game, end of story. Sorry if I'm pissing on peoples cornflakes, but that's the way I see it. Can we just please get over this, move away from personal attacks and get back to what we do best - fragging marauders, brigands, bandits and dodging those places that glow in the dark. Kato did a great job setting this place up when the old forum shit on us and I feel personally appalled that he felt he could no longer be involved his forum. Let's tone it down and see if we can get the big guy back again. At the end of the day its only a game.

Now feel free to toast me to a crisp

Then stop posting in this thread



Text is such a bad medium for trying to be humorous

[Mohoender]

Well this getting beyond the Australia discussion Mohender.

Originally Posted by Mohoender

Here you are forgetting about boomers and aircrafts. Then, in the game (always v2.2) the four Russian SS-18 bases were targeted and destroyed and there is no point to do that if the missiles are already launched (especially as no one hits any target anywere). That alone would explain why US wasn't hit by SS-18.

I doubt bombers would used in a first strike by either America or Russia, particularly against each other. Although boomers may be used in conjunction with land based ICBMs.

Originally Posted by Mohoender

Two things make me think that most of this comes from insufficient knowledge from the original T2K team (they didn't have internet and many informations were unavailable). Out of the 7 other bases destroyed in USSR, 3 are SS-26 (actual Iskander) and 1 is SS-27 (commissioned only after 1998). There is also no reason for them to have forgotten the 2 bases in Kazakhstan and especially/only these ones.

Probably right here.

Originally Posted by Mohoender

So to answer your question:
- All ICBM bases are not listed as destroyed but if two SS-18 bases remain why not use any of them (104) against US/Canada and their highly strategic targets?

They may use some, but there are other targets (Australia) that need to be hit as well.

Originally Posted by Mohoender

- To retaliate the soviets still have boomers and aircrafts+mobile ICBM fire units (about 300 SS-25).

I think they would be largely used against American and NATO targets closer to the USSR.

Originally Posted by Mohoender

- If the soviets starts, it is possible that they don't send SS-18 in the first place. However, I would agree that it is highly unlikely. On the other hand, again, why leaving about 80 SS-18 in their Silos while they are the best suited weapons to take out NORAD, the US ICBM bases and even Washington DC?

Well they dont really need to use the SS-18 (R-36M2) to hit the US as other ICBM's have the range, but to cause the most damage they would be well suited.

Originally Posted by Mohoender

In addition, according to the game text (again v2.2), both sides refrain from targetting the other side's ICBM land base for quite some times. At last, they do: All 4 US bases are taken out (Forks, Malmstrom, Minot & Warren +Vandenberg) and almost all Soviets bases in Russia with the base in others republics not accounted for (most likely forgotten). Then, they are two possibilities: All missiles are destroyed before being launched or they are launched before the bases are destroyed and, then, SS-18 should be accounted for all over (there are none/according to your own account most Satan were equipped with 20Mt warheads, they would have been used). I grant you that the Mt listed are highly questionable and can be open to debate (but that will become endless)

I don't think we will ever know will we.

Originally Posted by Mohoender

For my parts (I mean in my game), I use several SS-18 but only on highly strategic targets. They are not used extensively because the first strike is successful in decapitating the US ICBM force. Then, in turn, the Soviets' ICBM force (silo only) is decapitated by strikes from SLBM.

If the Soviets launched a first strike on the US I think its highly probable that most if not all of the US silo based ICBMs would be launched before they were destroyed by the incoming Soviet missiles.