State Guards in T2K (Includes User-made Unit)

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by The Dark

The counter-argument is that State Guard isn't a full-time job except for the very highest echelons, so it shouldn't be a career path at all, but a secondary choice.

As far as them being just military units, I can't speak for other states, but that's laughable for Virginia. The VDF has been in essentially its current form since 1983, providing disaster support.

There are a fair number of State Guards that handily pre-date the T2K timeline. Virginia's current version has existed since 1983 (when the State Constitution was changed). California's had theirs since 1846. Georgia's had their current version since 1985 (in the 70s, it was essentially a volunteer auxiliary police force). Indiana's dates back to the Civil War. Maryland has had a Defense Force since 1983. Massachusetts had one until last year (when the new governor declined to extend their charter). Michigan had the Emergency Volunteers from 1988 to 1998. Mississippi reactivated theirs in 1986 due to the Total Force Concept. Washington has had theirs since 1960. Out of those, California, Georgia, and Indiana are the only ones that I know provide weapons training to their State Guard. Most State Guards that exist are not an "organized military force" in the sense of having any sort of combat capability.

Given the widely varying levels of training and duties of State Guards, I think it may be best to do two different versions of State Guard. The first would be to have it as part of the secondary options for characters, more as an explanation of how they learned a skill than as anything else. The second would be a draft option for characters who are too old to reasonably be expected to be sent overseas. Historically, the draft has tended to be limited to people 45 or younger, so having State Guard as a draft option for characters with 8+ terms seems possible. Anyone younger than that would likely be drafted before the State Guards become a full-time occupation.

This is kind of what I have been trying to say, as right now (and also pre-TW2000) most places it is more a social club, I am not understanding the restriction put on it. I understand that it became something different , but up tell that time it was not a full time career.

[rcaf_777]

Originally Posted by CDAT

This is kind of what I have been trying to say, as right now (and also pre-TW2000) most places it is more a social club, I am not understanding the restriction put on it. I understand that it became something different , but up tell that time it was not a full time career.

It's dose not matter what the State Guard look like prior to pre-TW2000 as the PC are generated after war starts.

Take a look at the basic rules and character generation, you see plenty of restrictions for certain career paths. Those are in place to add realism to character generation. You can't use the regular rules, cause you won't end up with character you expect to see in the guard. Which are old men unfit for combat, but with a sense to service.

Look at the State Guard during WWII and the UK Home Guard of how you see them organized and trained on the fly and into a some what military force.

I'm not going for a regular army.....more like Dad's Army

[Raellus]

Perhaps someone already suggested this, but maybe a solution to the pre-war State Guard "career" is a special set of secondary activity skills. In v2.2, some career terms allow certain secondary activities that boost attributes or add skills. Using this system would allow one to pick existing civilian careers but still gain two or three additional skills (military or related) for every term spent in the SG.

Maybe a menu of skills would be best. A term of service in the SG would entitle the character to any 2-3 skills from that menu. This would, of course, replace the standard secondary activity perks for that career term.

[simonmark6]

Giving someone 2-3 choices from a menu is very powerful for a State Guard secondary skill which is generally 1 point. I'd say that if a previous turn included military, LEO or paramedic/emergency services then the character could choose to use their secondary skill point form one of those careers to represent them doing something they used to do as a job as a hobby.

Also, if you are talking retired people, you need a retirement term which would be 1 skill from the secondary list and 1 secondary skill, thus having the State Guard background would give a PC the option of having a more relevant skill than just the secondary skill list.

If you are having a game where the PCs are all retired State Guard, you may get the situation where character generation is frustrating or even like the old Traveller where your character dies in generation.

Bear in mind:
Aging rolls: these start at term 4 for Agility so a 12 term PC will have rolled 9 times to lose a point in agility: obviously when you get down to 1-2 it is less likely that you will fail the roll, but there's a chance that your character dies before war starts. Then there are seven Strength rolls, five Constitution rolls and one Intelligence roll. Granted you can use a secondary term to raise STR or CON but whatever happens to AGL happens.

After term 6 (if you are using v2.2) you're only getting 1 skill point per term unless you change occupations which is pretty gamey if you do it a lot.

Skills of a value higher than the controlling asset cost double: that may lead to skills degrading if STATs are lost. If you had an asset of 7 in Small Arms and a STR of 7 and then dropped a point in STR, a GM may be justified in requiring either a point be spent to bring the Small Arms back to 7 or in having the Small Arms reduced to 6. In my opinion, this skill degradation with age seems fairly realistic to me, particularly for physical skills: I'm not as good a tuba player now as I was when I was young, I can't manage the stamina and physicality even though I know a lot more. In a more physical skill it would probably be worse.

I haven't crunched the maths but an average character I made was down to AGL 1, STR 2 and CON 3 by term 12 and the skills didn't pay back the STAT loss in my opinion. An optimised character fared better but AGL still dropped to 2 and I had to pump skills into keeping my AGL skills up and secondary skills into compensating for STAT loss.

I know that the figures aren't everything, but worrying about a State Guard career is a moot point when your character has limited survivability. I think it would make a great game, a bunch of very experienced PCs using smarts to compensate for the fact they can barely hold a rifle let alone make multiple shots with it but mortality would be crazy high unless they were very clever.

That sounds like a cool game but like the predictions of what the UK Home Guard would have done and the Volkstrum did, it was estimated that Home Guard units with preparation and home advantage would hold enemy units up for hours. Given the lower intensity of TK2 encounters it might be longer but for a PC group of 65+ year olds I'd be more inclined to spend time working out tables for illnesses and conditions rather than what skills they can acquire in the State Guard.

"Old Tom, yup, he'd been a Scout Sniper in 'Nam back in the day, gave the Mexicans hell until his pacemaker ran out. Still, he held that column off for long enough for the boys to get the insulin shipment back to base, it saved darn near most of the squad."

"Most of the Lot? What Lot?"

"I said SQUAD!!!"

"There's no need to shout, now how are we going to spring that cataract doc from the POW camp, we need that young whippersnapper or Third Platoon are gonna need to shift to shotguns."

"Nice buns? Thanks, I still exercise every day."

"I said SHOTGUNS!!!"

"Now who's shouting? Anyway, a bayonet will be good enough, they don't like it up 'em you know. They don't like it up 'em."

Good luck with a game like that if you run it, it has potential to be the best game ever: TK2 meets Burrows and Bunnies, I envy you playing it.

[Raellus]

Yeah, I think you're right. 1 State Guard specific secondary activity skill point would be a more accurate reflection of peacetime SG activities.

[The Dark]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

It's dose not matter what the State Guard look like prior to pre-TW2000 as the PC are generated after war starts.

II don't really agree with this, because (in 2.2 timeline) the US only gets involved in the war in 1996, and the 1996-2000 period is the post-draft portion of character generation (i.e. the character's last rolled term ends in 1996). So, take a character who serves two terms in the infantry, then six terms in state/local law enforcement with State Guard as a secondary, then gets drafted back into the State Guard. This guy was born in 1947, served with the military from '64-72, and was in the State Guard from '72-00. Except for the Welcome to Hell term, it's entirely pre-war State Guard.

Take a look at the basic rules and character generation, you see plenty of restrictions for certain career paths. Those are in place to add realism to character generation. You can't use the regular rules, cause you won't end up with character you expect to see in the guard. Which are old men unfit for combat, but with a sense to service.

Look at the State Guard during WWII and the UK Home Guard of how you see them organized and trained on the fly and into a some what military force.

I'm not going for a regular army.....more like Dad's Army

That's perfectly fine, but to me it doesn't seem to fit with by-the-book T2K, where a character could theoretically have joined the State Guard as early as 1956 (10 term character who joins straight out of high school - which isn't impossible, since Virginia will take 16 or 17 year old volunteers with parental permission).

Since I hate bringing up problems without proposing a solution, my idea for the pre-war State Guard is that it's similar to being an active National Guard servicemember (receive one skill and roll for promotion), but they choose their skill gain from either the Paramedic list (if they have Medical 2+) or the State/Local Law Enforcement list, to reflect the jobs the State Guard was called on to perform before the war, rather than drawing from their military branch skills. A character does not need to be a veteran to be in the State Guard (though many/most are).

For during-the-war State Guard (i.e. those who are drafted with 8+ terms), veterans (anyone who has already been through basic training) would get double skills on the appropriate list (Paramedic or S/LLE) with Small Arms (Rifle), Ground Vehicle (Wheeled) and Tac Missile being added to their skill list. Veterans roll twice for promotion, but do not get a secondary skill. Non-veterans would get basic training and normal skill points for an appropriate State Guard skill list; they roll once for promotion and do get a secondary skill.

It feels a bit clunky as I write it, but it feels like a valid way to have the State Guard be distinct from the National Guard and to reflect both their pre-war role and the change in role as the war goes on.

[rcaf_777]

State Guard-Naval Militia Officer and Enlisted Career

[The Dark]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

State Guard-Naval Militia Officer and Enlisted Career

I would expect State Guard to also get M16EZ kits to free up "real weapons for real soldiers" or some such idea.

[rcaf_777]

Originally Posted by The Dark

I would expect State Guard to also get M16EZ kits to free up "real weapons for real soldiers" or some such idea.

Here is a good article on the M16EZ,

https://shootingdiceblog.wordpress.c...-twilight-war/

You might see them some state guards after 1999, but it relies on a MilGov supplied a second-hand barrel, bolt, bolt carrier, and trigger mechanism of an M16 or M16A1, which might not have made out to ever state guard unit in large quantities. These weapons I have here are what might be available to guards units at the beginning of the war. The M16EZ was weapon throw together because large scale weapon manufacturing was unavailable.

Question

With the above parts listed could a gunsmith make a M16EZ? if so what kind of skills and tasks are we talking about?

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

Here is a good article on the M16EZ,

https://shootingdiceblog.wordpress.c...-twilight-war/

You might see them some state guards after 1999, but it relies on a MilGov supplied a second-hand barrel, bolt, bolt carrier, and trigger mechanism of an M16 or M16A1, which might not have made out to ever state guard unit in large quantities. These weapons I have here are what might be available to guards units at the beginning of the war. The M16EZ was weapon throw together because large scale weapon manufacturing was unavailable.

Question

With the above parts listed could a gunsmith make a M16EZ? if so what kind of skills and tasks are we talking about?

NO. Not only is the kit missing a few crucial pieces such as the precisely sized buffer assembly that rides inside the buffer tube and regulates the rate of speed that the bolt travels back and forth inside the action (by both weight of assembly and spring rate), it is also missing the gas tube (which must PRECISELY fit the barrel vent to properly "gas" the bolt) which isn't too hard to "fab" but a nightmare to fit, the buffer tube (which must closely fit the buffer assembly to prevent binding) and the forward assist (which must be precisely fit to prevent "outgassing" and to mesh with the "contact grooves" on the bolt where it contacts said bolt). You can "delete" the forward assist, but you'd have to change the right side of the receiver to "seal" the hole that the forward assist travels in.

Finally, the M16 has a forged aluminum receiver. You could machine a steel receiver or investment cast a receiver, but if you have this technology, you can just make a NEW M16. The internal structure of an M16 receiver has some VERY complex machined cutouts that really require a CNC machine. This means NO stamped and welded sheet metal receivers like you can do with an AK or FAL (and like H&K actually used on the G3 series). This is why the AR-18 was designed...to give third world countries with only rudimentary technology a rifle that they could manufacture using "old school" metal fabricating tools. Parts guns would (and currently do) exist. This is where parts from several broken rifles are combined to make a functional rifle. You still need a serviceable receiver for this. In fact, GDW got this backward. It would be easier to send the bolt/buffer group and the receiver and have the local guys add everything else.

You would see a return of the "tube steel" guns like the M3 "Grease Gun" and the STEN Gun. This is greatest (and the most overlooked) asset of these weapons. You can crank them out in a shop with a press break, lathe, and a welder from common tube steel.

[swaghauler]

This thread brings up an interesting argument in the Twilight2000 timeline. There is this "idea" that frequently surfaces that people would be running around with home-made muskets because all of the firearms and ammunition were either used up or destroyed.

Both the US and Russia have enough small arms stockpiled to re-equip their armies THREE TIMES (although the M1, Mosin, and SKS would probably make an appearance in the third round). I did a rifle count at Ft. Indiantown Gap in the early 1990's for COG (continuity of government). There were 25K M16s (all M16A1s), 10K M14s, 1K M60s, and 1K assorted pistols (M1911s & .38 Model 10s) in this ONE site. There would also be a great number of "battlefield pickups" floating around to arm new recruits with. Finally, the US civilian population has HUGE numbers of both paramilitary and hunting rifles to draw on.
Since the Exchange was of only a limited nature, many of these "stockpiles" would still be intact.

Heavy weapons would be another story, though. From the beginning, this would be a "come as you are" or "bring what you got" war (with regards to the high-tech machines) The time it takes to assemble an M1 Abrams, M109 Paladin, or any jet in the modern age would preclude anything more than replacing "battlefield casualties" during the war. This means that older vehicles would be put back in service to cover losses or equip second line troops fairly quickly.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

This thread brings up an interesting argument in the Twilight2000 timeline. There is this "idea" that frequently surfaces that people would be running around with home-made muskets because all of the firearms and ammunition were either used up or destroyed.

Both the US and Russia have enough small arms stockpiled to re-equip their armies THREE TIMES (although the M1, Mosin, and SKS would probably make an appearance in the third round). I did a rifle count at Ft. Indiantown Gap in the early 1990's for COG (continuity of government). There were 25K M16s (all M16A1s), 10K M14s, 1K M60s, and 1K assorted pistols (M1911s & .38 Model 10s) in this ONE site. There would also be a great number of "battlefield pickups" floating around to arm new recruits with. Finally, the US civilian population has HUGE numbers of both paramilitary and hunting rifles to draw on.
Since the Exchange was of only a limited nature, many of these "stockpiles" would still be intact.

Heavy weapons would be another story, though. From the beginning, this would be a "come as you are" or "bring what you got" war (with regards to the high-tech machines) The time it takes to assemble an M1 Abrams, M109 Paladin, or any jet in the modern age would preclude anything more than replacing "battlefield casualties" during the war. This means that older vehicles would be put back in service to cover losses or equip second line troops fairly quickly.

I've never understood that either. Also instead of the 1st ed M16EZ, AR15 lowers no longer have blocks, salvage the best select fire parts and "drop in" AR15's if you need select fire. For Postwar units, one or two select fire rifles to assist in suppression fire roles per squad might be standard.

[The Dark]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

This thread brings up an interesting argument in the Twilight2000 timeline. There is this "idea" that frequently surfaces that people would be running around with home-made muskets because all of the firearms and ammunition were either used up or destroyed.

Both the US and Russia have enough small arms stockpiled to re-equip their armies THREE TIMES (although the M1, Mosin, and SKS would probably make an appearance in the third round). I did a rifle count at Ft. Indiantown Gap in the early 1990's for COG (continuity of government). There were 25K M16s (all M16A1s), 10K M14s, 1K M60s, and 1K assorted pistols (M1911s & .38 Model 10s) in this ONE site. There would also be a great number of "battlefield pickups" floating around to arm new recruits with. Finally, the US civilian population has HUGE numbers of both paramilitary and hunting rifles to draw on.
Since the Exchange was of only a limited nature, many of these "stockpiles" would still be intact.

Heavy weapons would be another story, though. From the beginning, this would be a "come as you are" or "bring what you got" war (with regards to the high-tech machines) The time it takes to assemble an M1 Abrams, M109 Paladin, or any jet in the modern age would preclude anything more than replacing "battlefield casualties" during the war. This means that older vehicles would be put back in service to cover losses or equip second line troops fairly quickly.

For number of arms, in 2013 the United States advised the Small Arms Survey that they had 2,700,000 total military small arms; in 2010, there were 1.43 million active service members, so the numbers provided suggest around 2 firearms per service member on average, not including reservists. This is probably a little low, since other trinitarian militaries were around 2.5. Typical proportions of arms globally were found to be 72% selective-fire rifles, 13% pistols, 9% machineguns, and 6% other. I would expect the Twilight War military to be slightly higher, both due to having more servicemembers and (probably) a higher proportion of gunseople.

More importantly, though, military caliber ammunition could become a problem within a fairly brief time. Unless something has changed in the past few years, Lake City (Missouri) produces all the 5.56mm, 7.62mm, and 12.7mm for the military (I think 20mm also, but I never was involved in procuring that). Now, the stockpiles are likely in the billions of rounds (the number's classified, but the DoD regularly transfers millions of rounds to other agencies like the FBI or Marshal Service for their training without batting an eye, which gives at least a rough feel for how vast the number must be), but even if most aren't hit by the Exchange, distribution is still going to be a PITA in the post-apocalypse. I agree with the upthread comment that selective fire would likely be eliminated from most weapons in order to conserve ammo, and there'd probably also be a push to include the more common civilian calibers among second-tier units.

[rcaf_777]

I built this AK-47 and it's legal and totally untraceable?

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...building-party

Another Option

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by The Dark

For number of arms, in 2013 the United States advised the Small Arms Survey that they had 2,700,000 total military small arms; in 2010, there were 1.43 million active service members, so the numbers provided suggest around 2 firearms per service member on average, not including reservists. This is probably a little low, since other trinitarian militaries were around 2.5. Typical proportions of arms globally were found to be 72% selective-fire rifles, 13% pistols, 9% machineguns, and 6% other. I would expect the Twilight War military to be slightly higher, both due to having more servicemembers and (probably) a higher proportion of gunseople.

As for number of weapons per service member I do not know if they count the M203 as a separate weapon from the AR that it is attached to or not, but regardless some groups have many more weapons that others. For example my last years in I was EOD my three man team had one M4 each, two M203's, one M14, one M82, one M249, one M240, and officially one M9 for the team (but when we deployed we had one each). This gave our three man team between ten and twelve weapons for the team. There were nine teams just like mine in the company not counting the command/supply elements. Now yes we are still talking about lots of weapons but how many teams like this would it take to make up the numbers of weapons listed?

Originally Posted by The Dark

More importantly, though, military caliber ammunition could become a problem within a fairly brief time. Unless something has changed in the past few years, Lake City (Missouri) produces all the 5.56mm, 7.62mm, and 12.7mm for the military (I think 20mm also, but I never was involved in procuring that). Now, the stockpiles are likely in the billions of rounds (the number's classified, but the DoD regularly transfers millions of rounds to other agencies like the FBI or Marshal Service for their training without batting an eye, which gives at least a rough feel for how vast the number must be), but even if most aren't hit by the Exchange, distribution is still going to be a PITA in the post-apocalypse. I agree with the upthread comment that selective fire would likely be eliminated from most weapons in order to conserve ammo, and there'd probably also be a push to include the more common civilian calibers among second-tier units.

I have no idea about the ammo made and all that, but I do know that I have received in Iraq .50 Cal ammo with 1945 date stamp on it. I assume that it is a case of using the oldest first, but also know what happens when you assume. I would guess that old WWII ammo weapons (.45 ACP, .30-06, maybe even .30 carbine) would have surplus ammo, the newer rounds (5.56, and 7.62) would be more likely to run out early.

[The Dark]

Originally Posted by CDAT

As for number of weapons per service member I do not know if they count the M203 as a separate weapon from the AR that it is attached to or not, but regardless some groups have many more weapons that others.

Sure. There's a big difference in loadout between a dozen SOF operators and a dozen radar technicians for a carrier (just using those as an example since they're probably close to each end of the spectrum).

For example my last years in I was EOD my three man team had one M4 each, two M203's, one M14, one M82, one M249, one M240, and officially one M9 for the team (but when we deployed we had one each). This gave our three man team between ten and twelve weapons for the team. There were nine teams just like mine in the company not counting the command/supply elements. Now yes we are still talking about lots of weapons but how many teams like this would it take to make up the numbers of weapons listed?

At four weapons per person, it's be a bit under 700,000 people. The proportion starts to skew back the other way once you take into account the USAF and USN; aircraft carriers and airfields have relatively low ratios.

I have no idea about the ammo made and all that, but I do know that I have received in Iraq .50 Cal ammo with 1945 date stamp on it. I assume that it is a case of using the oldest first, but also know what happens when you assume. I would guess that old WWII ammo weapons (.45 ACP, .30-06, maybe even .30 carbine) would have surplus ammo, the newer rounds (5.56, and 7.62) would be more likely to run out early.

I was poking around a bit to see what would be available on the civilian side, and one bulk seller listed how much revenue they received for each caliber. The largest was 9mm Para, followed by .223 Remi, .45 ACP, .40 S&W, .22 LR, 5.56x45mm NATO, 12 ga, and 7.62x51mm NATO. I don't know what it looked like back in the 90s, though.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

State Guard-Naval Militia Officer and Enlisted Career

This can cover some preppers as well. Using T2K2.2 and a later timeline allows for older PC's to be in these organizations and younger ones used in overseas campaigns.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

I built this AK-47 and it's legal and totally untraceable?

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...building-party

Another Option

This actually happens. A huge number of FALs were also built like this in the US during the early 90's as well. The preference was for the "Inch Model" (British parts kits) as it was considered by many aficionados to be more accurate, but a great many "Metrics" were built as well.

[ArmySGT.]

One can also purchase an 80% AR-15 lower and take it to a build party. There are jigs and fixtures to machine one completely via CNC or manual mill.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

One can also purchase an 80% AR-15 lower and take it to a build party. There are jigs and fixtures to machine one completely via CNC or manual mill.

One CNC machine will pay for itself with six or more machinings.

[Pinhead Slim]

I've got two ways of thinking with the M16EZ personally.

If it stays in the game at all, I change the wording so that the government sent out "Barreled upper assemblies and part kits", with the added fun of the parts kits notoriously missing one or two key parts. Although I'm more of a fan of option two.

Option two being that the M16EZ never existed at all, and everyone who would have got M16EZ kits got surplus weapons just like you guys are saying. M1 Carbines, Garands, and 1903 rifles all around!

When my games stick around in the US I have a tendency to make M1 Carbines the "default" gun of all sorts of people. Farmers, raiders, low level military/high level police, etc.

[The Dark]

Originally Posted by Pinhead Slim

Option two being that the M16EZ never existed at all, and everyone who would have got M16EZ kits got surplus weapons just like you guys are saying. M1 Carbines, Garands, and 1903 rifles all around!

M1917 Enfields too, given that CMP still gets a couple dozen a year that were loaned by the Army to veterans' groups. It makes me wonder if there are any BARs still around. Between the 1903s, 1917s, Garands, and BARs, it would be possible to build the squad discussed earlier, where 1 or 2 have automatic weapons (the BARs) and everyone else either a semi-automatic or bolt-action (the 1903/1917/Garand), all using .30-06.

[Pinhead Slim]

Also for what it's worth the M1 carbine can be quite easily converted to full auto, there are even still fully legal transferable kits you can still find today to convert your M1 to a full auto M2.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by The Dark

For number of arms, in 2013 the United States advised the Small Arms Survey that they had 2,700,000 total military small arms; in 2010, there were 1.43 million active service members, so the numbers provided suggest around 2 firearms per service member on average, not including reservists. This is probably a little low, since other trinitarian militaries were around 2.5. Typical proportions of arms globally were found to be 72% selective-fire rifles, 13% pistols, 9% machineguns, and 6% other. I would expect the Twilight War military to be slightly higher, both due to having more servicemembers and (probably) a higher proportion of gunseople.

More importantly, though, military caliber ammunition could become a problem within a fairly brief time. Unless something has changed in the past few years, Lake City (Missouri) produces all the 5.56mm, 7.62mm, and 12.7mm for the military (I think 20mm also, but I never was involved in procuring that). Now, the stockpiles are likely in the billions of rounds (the number's classified, but the DoD regularly transfers millions of rounds to other agencies like the FBI or Marshal Service for their training without batting an eye, which gives at least a rough feel for how vast the number must be), but even if most aren't hit by the Exchange, distribution is still going to be a PITA in the post-apocalypse. I agree with the upthread comment that selective fire would likely be eliminated from most weapons in order to conserve ammo, and there'd probably also be a push to include the more common civilian calibers among second-tier units.

All those rounds are at a fraction of capacity, Lake city at full capacity would equal out to 4-5 times the U.S. civilian ammo makers. Also some specialty stuff was done elsewhere and only packed at L.C. Winchester did 9X19, L.C. only did one pistol round- the PGU-12/B High Velocity .38 SPL for the USAF. Winchester also did the .50BMG SLAP, but L.C. does the MK.211.

[The Dark]

Originally Posted by .45cultist

All those rounds are at a fraction of capacity, Lake city at full capacity would equal out to 4-5 times the U.S. civilian ammo makers.

At full capacity, yes, but during the Twilight WarLake City wouldn't be able to reach full capacity. They'd have to take machines out of mothballs and hire and train new workers to expand production.

Before 9/11, total small arms ammunition consumption for the military was on the order of 350 million rounds per year. It went up to 1.1 billion rounds immediately after 9/11, which caused shortages because Lake City needed time to expand; as late as 2004 it produced 1 billion rounds per year. It took three years during a time when there weren't direct attacks to add 650 million rounds/year of capacity; this is probably close to the best performance that can be expected for a TW-era expansion.

At the point when they were producing 1.2 billion rounds per year in late 2005, they were using 70% of the floor space of the plant. It also required them to go from 650 employees at 350 million/year to 1,950 employees at 1.2 billion/year. Extrapolating out, they'd have a maximum capacity of around 1.7 billion/year, and would need around 2,600-2,700 employees to manage that production level. They'd also need no disruptions at their 1,800 suppliers (some of which had trouble with the real-world ramp-up). That rate of production would require three shifts per day, seven days per week, with minimal maintenance downtime on some very old machines.

Given the time frame of the Twilight War, you're looking at the pre-9/11 plant with a maximum output of 350 million rounds per year, with the next available equipment being machines mothballed since the Vietnam War, and with only 650 trained employees. Ramping up in wartime is going to be hard, particularly since there will be problems with primer supply. It requires 13 chemicals to make military primer, 10 of which are imported from Europe, China, Brazil, India, Canada, and Mexico.

To sum up, yes, Lake City has large capacity, but the logistics will be the problem. Particularly with the timing of the Twilight War, its workforce isn't large enough to expand production rapidly, much of its machinery is stored, and supply chain problems will cause a rapid decline in production capacity.

[rcaf_777]

Originally Posted by Pinhead Slim

Also for what it's worth the M1 carbine can be quite easily converted to full auto, there are even still fully legal transferable kits you can still find today to convert your M1 to a full auto M2.

The M1 is a good choice for a state guard weapons, they are still being made by a few companies, they are also some available through the US CMP.

http://www.m1carbinesinc.com/carbines.html

http://www.auto-ordnance.com/Reviews...weapons-LE.asp

https://www.inland-mfg.com/Inland-Carbines/M1-1945.ht

I don't think any of the M1918 Browning Automatic Rifles (BAR) are left in the US, since 1986 you wouldn't be able to own them through CMP. Many more were given as aid to countries in South East Asian and South America.
I could see them be found is a few state guards if there owners brought them in.

[The Dark]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

The M1 is a good choice for a state guard weapons, they are still being made by a few companies, they are also some available through the US CMP.

http://www.m1carbinesinc.com/carbines.html

http://www.auto-ordnance.com/Reviews...weapons-LE.asp

https://www.inland-mfg.com/Inland-Carbines/M1-1945.ht

I don't think any of the M1918 Browning Automatic Rifles (BAR) are left in the US, since 1986 you wouldn't be able to own them through CMP. Many more were given as aid to countries in South East Asian and South America.
I could see them be found is a few state guards if there owners brought them in.

There are a handful in private hands (there's usually at least one at Knob Creek), but the NG phased them out in the 70s, which (AFAIK) was the last major user in the US. Ohio Ordnance makes a semi-auto version that fires from a closed bolt, the M1918A3, but only since the late 90s, so it wouldn't be around during the Twilight War. It also wouldn't be very suitable for conversion to automatic fire, due to the closed bolt (plus it had some modifications to make it even less suitable after ATF rejected the original design). The HCAR (a modernized semi-auto BAR) is also far too new.

[Pinhead Slim]

Something else to consider would be how well armed a unit might be based on its state of origin. I don't imagine there are many gunsmiths in most parts of the East Coast but here in Arizona you can't throw a rock without hitting a guy with a small machine shop in his garage, doing good work out of it. I imagine after the nukes full all sorts of those garage-shops will churn out a few select-fire ARs of various quality, and probably a ton of parts like "lightning links" that turn ARs into full auto only but are very simple and easy to make.

Combined with the sheer amount of guns in the state and any unit that began operating out of Phoenix could have all sorts of unique guns, many of them full auto. I have been personally offered an illegal unregistered select fire Mac-10 in trade before, and of course I turned it down but that kind of stuff just happens here. I mean heck, the Big Sandy shoot has been happening twice a year since the 90s, imagine if the largest private gathering of machine guns and artillery pieces in the United States got together right before Thanksgiving Day 1997. All of that firepower and enough ammo to feed it for the several all-day/all-night shoots in one area.

[The Dark]

Originally Posted by Pinhead Slim

Something else to consider would be how well armed a unit might be based on its state of origin. I don't imagine there are many gunsmiths in most parts of the East Coast but here in Arizona you can't throw a rock without hitting a guy with a small machine shop in his garage, doing good work out of it. I imagine after the nukes full all sorts of those garage-shops will churn out a few select-fire ARs of various quality, and probably a ton of parts like "lightning links" that turn ARs into full auto only but are very simple and easy to make.

Combined with the sheer amount of guns in the state and any unit that began operating out of Phoenix could have all sorts of unique guns, many of them full auto. I have been personally offered an illegal unregistered select fire Mac-10 in trade before, and of course I turned it down but that kind of stuff just happens here. I mean heck, the Big Sandy shoot has been happening twice a year since the 90s, imagine if the largest private gathering of machine guns and artillery pieces in the United States got together right before Thanksgiving Day 1997. All of that firepower and enough ammo to feed it for the several all-day/all-night shoots in one area.

USA Carry lists 44 gunsmiths in Arizona. There are 45 in Florida, 21 in Georgia, 11 in South Carolina, 45 in North Carolina, 42 in Virginia, 23 in Maryland, 19 in Pennsylvania, 2 in Delaware, 9 in New Jersey, 29 in New York, 13 in Connecticut, 5 in Rhode Island (!), 13 in Massachusetts, 15 in New Hampshire, 9 in Vermont, and 13 in Maine. All those numbers are probably low, since the number of gunsmiths is way higher than what shows on their site, but it gives a rough idea of the proportions involved. I decided to go look at manufacturers as well.

Speaking specifically of Florida (I'm more familiar with it than where I live now), there are a lot of small manufacturers, to the extent that Florida is #2 in the US for manufacturers with 691 licensed gun manufacturers (only Texas has more, with 1,103 - together, they account for 17% of the nation's manufacturers). Brevard County alone has 48, ranging from the fairly major (Kel-Tec, Knight's Armament, Diamondback) to small shops that manufacture components or do final assembly.

That said, the number of manufacturers has exploded in the past few years. From 2009 to 2015, the country went from 3,040 licensed manufacturers to 10,503. I don't know what it looked like in the early 90s.

[Pinhead Slim]

I specifically said "most parts" thinking of the exceptions of primarily Florida, and secondarily Virginia.

And I wouldn't go by that list, that website only lists 2 gun stores in all of Alaska and only 20 in Arizona. Going by those numbers you'd get some warped perceptions of gun culture even if those gunsmith numbers were accurate though, that would mean there are three times as many gunsmiths per person in AZ than in FL because AZ is one third the population of FL.