LAV-75; Stingray; M8 AGS

[Mohoender]

As chico has been talking about it, what about the stingray? I tend to use it as it saw limited but regular production for the Thai army (sole user to this days as far as i know). About the LAV, I have a tendency to use it with a TS-90 gun under a F-4 turret.

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

As chico has been talking about it, what about the stingray? I tend to use it as it saw limited but regular production for the Thai army (sole user to this days as far as i know). About the LAV, I have a tendency to use it with a TS-90 gun under a F-4 turret.

I had had a very similar thought about upgrading the LAV-75's gun to a 90mm low-pressure gun. There is plenty of precedent among light AFV all around the world. We might justify having the upgrade made by imagining that the LAV-75 is among the first US AFV sent to China in 1995. Naturally, the Army pays close attention to battlefield performance. When the unsatisfactory kill power of the 75mm is revealed, the Army embarks on a crash program to upgrade the LAV's gun (and turret) using off-the-shelf components. High priority Regular Army units might well receive their upgraded LAVs by October 1996 if enough priority is placed on the work. Of course, the LAV-75 moniker isn't going to be very applicable at that point. LAV-90? Some other name?

Good thinking, Mo!

Webstral

[Raellus]

I'm all for any explanation that allows for the LAV-75 in the Twilight World but I'm not sure the 90mm LVG is going to be a whole lot more effective against either tanks (especially tanks) or hardened bunkers than the 75mm HVG.

The U.S. army fielded the M56, a 90mm gun armed SPATG during the '50s and '60s. The 90mm gun's performance against MBTs (I don't think they ever engaged enemy tanks in actual combat) proved disappointing and they were retired shortly after Vietnam.

The LAV-75 is built on a relatively small, light chasis but I wonder if it could handle a 105mm gun. That's about the minimum acceptable calibre nowadays for MBTs precicely because anything lighter will have trouble handling most MBTs built after the '60s. Due to the improved protection of current generation MBTs, the trend over the past 30 years has been for larger caliber guns. Supposedly, the Russian's new T-95/Black Talon MBT is equipped with either a 135 or 150mm main gun. After 1980, I can't see the army settling for anything under 105mm on weapon system designed to engage enemy MBTs.

[Adm.Lee]

I remember reading that the HV gun on the Scorpion was reasonably (marginally?) effective against some Soviet armor. Could have been propaganda, I don't think I've checked it out.

I always thought the LAV-75 was mythical, too, until I read about the M8... first when it was cancelled, and again when the Rangers in Mogadishu really, really wanted some! I assumed that was the LAV-75.

Today, I learned that they weren't one & the same. Huh.

While I'm on the subject, I heard from an active-duty friend about the trials that were done prior to the adoption of the LAV-25 --> Stryker. He told me that a dozen or so designs were tested, and the test teams (1 team, 2 samples for each design) were headed by NCOs, not officers. That impressed him! Of those tests, one of the primary benefits of the Stryker over the Bradley was that the passengers weren't bruised and fatigued after a long march.

Back to the game: my first campaign in v.1 Poland, I let the PCs find and fix a LAV-75, but without the gun. They had more than enough fun with the MGs, anyway. I think I refused to let them swap an 82mm mortar for the 75mm gun.

[Raellus]

Considering the nomenclature of the LAV-75, the Army's system for naming new gear doesn't always make sense. Maybe they just kept the original designation (based on the original 75mm gun system), after up-gunning them all, in order to avoid confusion.

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

I remember reading that the HV gun on the Scorpion was reasonably (marginally?) effective against some Soviet armor. Could have been propaganda, I don't think I've checked it out.

Considering when the M56 was designed/fielded, that was probably against PT-76s and T-55/55s- T-62s at best. I don't know for sure but I'm guessing it wasn't that great against the T-62, else they would have used them longer. I should do a little more research, I guess.

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

Back to the game: my first campaign in v.1 Poland, I let the PCs find and fix a LAV-75, but without the gun. They had more than enough fun with the MGs, anyway. I think I refused to let them swap an 82mm mortar for the 75mm gun.

So you're one of those mean GMs, huh?

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

I always thought the LAV-75 was mythical, too, until I read about the M8... first when it was cancelled, and again when the Rangers in Mogadishu really, really wanted some! I assumed that was the LAV-75.

Today, I learned that they weren't one & the same. Huh.

I was under the impression that the LAV-75 was based on the TAM.

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

While I'm on the subject, I heard from an active-duty friend about the trials that were done prior to the adoption of the LAV-25 --> Stryker. He told me that a dozen or so designs were tested, and the test teams (1 team, 2 samples for each design) were headed by NCOs, not officers. That impressed him! Of those tests, one of the primary benefits of the Stryker over the Bradley was that the passengers weren't bruised and fatigued after a long march.

Isn't the Stryker a lineal descendant of the LAV-25 followed by Australia's ASLAV?

[Raellus]

The LAV-75 was based, I believe, on the chasis of the M113 APC. I was looking at a Osprey book on the M151 Sheridan when I came across an actual photograph of what GDW called the LAV-75. I had to do a double-take. I read up on it and I'm pretty sure it said it was based on the M113 chasis. If I was a millionaire, I would have bought the book just for that one photo and paragraph.

On a cool little side note, I just Googled LAV-75 to see if I could find a pic of the actual LAV-75 (I can't remember the official designation of the prototype) to prove to Mo that it was real and the first two things that popped up were our forum threads!

[Mohoender]

Actually, you are right. It was real but never reached the production line. It was undergoing testing in the mid-1980's. My confusion on that one came from the fact that I know it from the prototypes name: High Survivability Test Vehicle (Lightweight) HSTV(L).

Here are its specifications:
Crew: 3
Weight: 20450kg
Length gun forward: 8.528m
Length hull: 5.918m
Width:2.794m
Height: 2.414m
Max road speed: 83km/h
Accelaration 0-48 km/h: 11.8 sec.
Fuel capacity: 409 liters.
Max cruising range: 160km
Fording: 1m
Gradient: 60%
Side slope: 30%
Turning radius: pivot to infinity.
It was equipped with a 75mm ARES gun and 2 SMG (coaxial and AA)
Ammo was 26 and 3200 for the SMGs.

The lighter version was called Rapid Deployment Force Light Tank (RDF/LT). this lighter version could also mount a 76mm gun under a two men turret.

An interesting thing with 75mm ARES is that it was also intended as a replacement for the turret on the M551 sheridan.

I got the Jane's on armour and artillery 1984-1985 (found it in Brussel for about 25$). If you ever visit Brussel, go and check the second hand bookshops located in the islamist area next to the south railway station.

It seems that these programs were terminated because of the ARES gun fragility. After all, the Sgt York couldn't fire an accurate shot at a static balloon. LAV-AD, M6 Linebreaker... are much more impressive (IMO).

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by Raellus

The LAV-75 was based, I believe, on the chasis of the M113 APC. I was looking at a Osprey book on the M151 Sheridan when I came across an actual photograph of what GDW called the LAV-75. I had to do a double-take. I read up on it and I'm pretty sure it said it was based on the M113 chasis. If I was a millionaire, I would have bought the book just for that one photo and paragraph.

On a cool little side note, I just Googled LAV-75 to see if I could find a pic of the actual LAV-75 (I can't remember the official designation of the prototype) to prove to Mo that it was real and the first two things that popped up were our forum threads!

Yes the LAV-75 chasis was a M113. Popular Mechanics...lol My dad use to get them, and they had article shortly after Reagan took office and the RDF, the predecessor of Central Command. In the article they looked at the vehicles that 9th Infantry Test Bed Division were giving try outs too. LAV-75 proto-types and LAV-25 were there as well as various versions of the FAVs. Many of the various configuration of the HMMWV were tested here too.

The Modular Division concept was only 20 too late. As I recall when the 25th was made into Light Infantry Division, it was like many of the Mechanized/Armored Division in the states that had 2 active units. Well as the 6th and 7th Light Infantry Division were stood up, and 10th Mountain. One problem with all 4 divisions was ideally they had round out Light Brigades, but many of the top brass was hoping if and when they were sent to combat that they would have something of the Stryker Brigades now or Light Motorized concept tested in the 9th. For the only other real option was to attach a Mechanized/Armored Brigade to these Divisions.

From what I could see the Brass didn't really support the Light Infantry concept nor did they care for the 9th either. Even though twenty year later the concepts developed in the 9th were dusted off and given a new look with a shrinking Army. In real life even the 82nd had lost it Armor Battalion in the 1990s. Too many sheridans had crashed and burned.

[Brit]

Originally Posted by Raellus

The LAV-75 was based, I believe, on the chasis of the M113 APC. I was looking at a Osprey book on the M151 Sheridan when I came across an actual photograph of what GDW called the LAV-75. I had to do a double-take. I read up on it and I'm pretty sure it said it was based on the M113 chasis. If I was a millionaire, I would have bought the book just for that one photo and paragraph.

On a cool little side note, I just Googled LAV-75 to see if I could find a pic of the actual LAV-75 (I can't remember the official designation of the prototype) to prove to Mo that it was real and the first two things that popped up were our forum threads!

Posted on the old board. Long time stalker on this... I hope this link works but if it does you photo is on p. 43...

http://www.scribd.com/doc/55508944/M...anks-1941-2001

There's loads of other stuff too. (It takes a while to load...)

[Mohoender]

LAV fitted with TS-90 under F-4 turrets is not only due to my thinking but it bears more to real life. I don't think that the LAV-75 ever came to existence. However, the piranha/LAV TDG (production in 1990) is a reality as is the LAV-120 AMS and the Canadian Cougar. Then, it seems than the most recent Piranha IV can be fitted with a 105mm tank turret verry similar to that of the AMX-10RC.

About efficiency, the TS-90 gun has proved very efficient on low intensity conflict (Africa and South America). It equips the mexican Lynx and the french Panhard ERC-90 as well as several other vehicle. Unlike the cockrill 90mm gun you are reffering to, it can take out about everything but the most modern tanks and it would be a threat to many cold war tanks (T-55, T-62, M48, Type 59, AMX-30...).