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#31
10-13-2008, 10:41 AM
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Chuck M.
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Slave to 1 cat. 
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#32
10-13-2008, 11:36 AM
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Jeep and Ford are working on a diesel model, they have been talking about it for a year, a diesel SUV.
Volkswagen did make several diesel models, A Jetta, one of their little pickups, the Golf Audi made a diesel BMW and Mercedes Nissan Sentra had a couple models Even a little Mitsubishi pickup had a diesel model Those are the ones off the top of my head. And now with the alternative energy comming up, they are working on several diesel passenger cars, light trucks and SUVs, then again they may just be doing it for public relations. However, in California, they made it illegal to sell new diesel cars here, although you can bring in used ones. Go figure. What a joke, yes they belch out smoke, but that is just look, diesel engines burn almost 90% of the fuel, whereas gas engines burn about 1/3 of the fuel, so which one polutes more? One you just don't see it which in my view makes it worse.
__________________
"God bless America, the land of the free, but only so long as it remains the home of the brave."
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#33
10-13-2008, 11:49 AM
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Actually Ford Explorer Diesel remain a ghost car on second hand websites.
 . You'll find plenty just to learn there is none.Most car makers have diesel models has they are selling them in Europe. Isn't the Army Hummvee a diesel? Does California regulation mean that California national guard cannot buy them? About polution they polute differently. Gasoline is throwing more CO2 in the atmosphere while diesel is rejecting more micro particules (favoring athma, for exemple). In fact, Gasoline helps warming the atmosphere while diesel helps cooling it up. I used to buy the expensive diesel (with less sulfur...) but, since I learned that, I went back to the regular more poluting one (I don't have athma but suffer from heat). Sorry about others. 
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#34
10-13-2008, 01:11 PM
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California National Guard have an exemption as they are government, and we all know government can make the rules but they do not have to follow them.
And they allow for large diesel trucks to be sold as those are comerical vehicles. So, comercial is okay but not the common man. But, there is another way around this silly rule. If the vehicle is registered as an alternative fuel vehicle then it is allowed, thus tell them you drive on biodiesel, and you even get a tax reduction. So many silly people making laws that they know nothing about.
__________________
"God bless America, the land of the free, but only so long as it remains the home of the brave."
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#35
10-13-2008, 10:07 PM
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Here in Australia vehicles that Americans call SUVs are nearly all diesel, mainly for reasons of fuel economy. The profligate waste of petrol that Americans seem to have favoured for decades and decades is a bit bewildering to most Australians. Sorry if this causes offence but the way that America has churned through so much of the world's oil as if it was an infinite resource has always struck me as being incredibly selfish.
__________________
 "It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli
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#36
10-13-2008, 11:09 PM
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We "Americans" Targan? Think about this. It is the auto industry not the American people. The industry does as it pleases reguardless of what the people deamnd. And the industry is geared for production of gasoline, they will not change in any meaningful ways beyond paying lipservice whch is more of a PR stunt and to gain tax credits.
Jeep and others have said they would do a biodisel Jeep, and other vehicles would be fuel efficient but, the only places one sees them is in demostrantions and in their catalogues or online. Remember the auto industry was a giant, and they are dwindling but still have power. They are dinosaurs, and dinosaurs are loath to change. Other examples, the hybrid vehicles, the electic vehicles, the fuel cells, I have seen them I have seen the signs all over the highways for the electric vehicles, but they were short lived and no one could own an electric car, you could only lease one. They lasted for a short time and were then taken back by the manufacturer and we haven't seen them since. The auto industry is as corupt in my view as the tobacco companies. An example, that is correct, and illsutrated in two ethics courses I have taken as well as a moviem, the one with that matt daymond I think who plays a genius I think. "The auto industry does studies for vehicle defects." They weigh the cost between a recall or refit verses the damage they will have to pay out in wrongful death or personal injuries. And if the cost is less to pay off people killed or injured because of a defective product, then they will continue to let it be defective, even though they know it to be wrong and dangeorus and it could prevent future injury. And that is the American and I would venture to guess the worlds auto industries. The world of big buisness does not always do what is right. I personaly don't expect it of them. And that is the way of mos buisness, screw the little guy and doing what is right, do what is right for the corporation. Oh good, this is the political forum so I am safe for my rant. But, did you get my point? I hope I wasn't too confusing.
__________________
"God bless America, the land of the free, but only so long as it remains the home of the brave."
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#37
10-13-2008, 11:35 PM
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IMHO It is really simple. Until now there has been absolutely no economic incentive for non gasoline vehicles for either producers or consumers. Oil is a nearly perfect source of energy. It is portable, stable, cheap (until recently) and very energy dense.
If you can get if for a low price, why not. No country, company, or individual will completely sacrifice their self interest for an undetermined long term benefit of everyone else. If saving oil for the long term is so important are Norway, The UK, Saudi Arabia, Nigeria, Russia, and Argentina selfish for selling it. Oil is not running out now or in the near term and you know what, humanity will deal with dwindling supplies by conserving, and replacing it with new technology, because that is what the market and basic human greed will dictate. The US has made bad decisions in ignoring coal and nuclear power, but there was no compelling economic reason to do so until now. Solar will increase, as will wind and in our lifetime fusion will be a reality. Personally I feel that butanol from agricultural waste is the 20 year solution to gasoline. It will be able to replace gasoline without the economic hardship of changing the gasoline infrastructure, as it is highly likely that most late model cars can run on 100% butanol safely with no modifications. Interesting read and another possibility for fuel in the T2k world. Wow I got us back on topic for the forum  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butanol_fuel Last edited by kato13; 10-14-2008 at 12:13 AM.
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#38
10-14-2008, 01:12 AM
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Jest
I'm not that sure they do as they please. Actually yes until situation changes and I think you all already said this. This is the case right now and, of course, that is valid for individuals too. Most people don't care about mother earth, they just feel concerned about the amount of money in their bank account (Count me among them). Howerver, Europeans are less trusty than Americans and we might not revert to our old habits. As a result, car manufacturers are changing their models fast (surprisingly fast in fact). They have to, we don't buy them anymore and everyone is reducing their oil consumption: something like -20% for car sell and -10% for fuel consumption (impressive also). We can't drive fast anymore, therefore, we buy simpler, slower cars. Give me a Porsche and I'll drive between 180-200 miles/hr. I can't, then, I don't buy it (still I love that car, and their SUV is gorgeous). Funny, that the smallest car around my place is a chevy (except for a few japanese ones). By the way I have heard that gasoline price in U.S. is currently about 4$ (may be more) a gallon. If that is true, it means that ours is no more or even less expensive than yours. Think of it, we had about a 20-30% increase over the last 7-8 years, U.S. had live through a 100% increase in the same time (about 300-400% over the past 15 years). Bad time for american cars. Americans will be thinking about it. One last thing, How is it to live in the Newest Socialist Country (with all that state money sent into banks)? Don't you fear of being renamed Socialist Union of Northern America (S.U.N.A.)
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#39
10-14-2008, 01:35 AM
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We could probably pump it ashore and sell it for 50 cent a litreand still make tons of dough - but the enviroment/green taxes etc drive the prices up. Taxing fuel consumption is the wealthy nations is the way to go unless you want overconsumption .
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#40
10-14-2008, 05:06 AM
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That gives me an idea of what our future might be. I'll be dreaming about guillotines again. Time for a free shaving ("on rase gratis") .
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#41
10-14-2008, 05:46 AM
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a little cheaper for truckers that can buy on a special business quota.
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#42
10-14-2008, 10:50 AM
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Ah, here are some things to consider guys.
1.) America has been a car culture since we burst onto the world scene. Then we were the largest producer for fuel, even for export. Then again that was just comming out of a time when gasoline was a useless waste product. But, we have been a car culture for about 100 years at this point. So, how do we change something that has been so deeply engrained in our culture over night? 2.) As a resule of the above, we do not have a large reliable mass transit in many areas, especialy west of the Missississippi, so basicaly half the country is without a good, working system. They had one in the metro Southern California area prior to the 1960s, but they got rid of it, because of the car culture. But, it would not have kept up with demand today and now we are caught in a lurch and now scrambling to make stop gap rail systems localy. Remember, even passenger cross country travel by rail is not everywhere. AMTRAK a private concern that is funded by the government just so this country does have a passenger rail system has actualy reduced the routes it travels and the number of stops at many of the routes it maintains. And their buisness has been on the upswing due to the high cost and terrible treatment the airlines have managed to do. Simply put, we have a inadeuqate local or national rail system for passenger service and such has been the case since my father was a boy. As an aside, this could be an interesting thing in the T2K world with the shuttling of troops around the nation. Sending them from the midwest to the West Coast where they would sail by ship to the Asian or Alaskan front, or from California to Europe. 3.) We are a pretty large country. And without a reliable or far reaching mass transit what is the solution? Those are just some of the things. As for the cost of fuel, it was about $1.50 and sometimes less than 1.00. About a year ago, I recall filling up my gas tank the evening before my last surgery, fuel was 1.90, within a few weeks it jumped to 2.50, and kept climbing, 3.00, 3.50, then iit broke 4.00 and within what four months ago peaked at 4.80, some places it had broken the 5.00 a gallon mark. And now it is in the 2.50 range. But a jump from the 1.90 to 5.00 mark is an increase of 150% in a year. That is beyond the pale, and can an economy, especialy one that is geared around the internal combustion engine take a hit like that, and a price increase in that short of time without negative consequences? Just some thoughts.
__________________
"God bless America, the land of the free, but only so long as it remains the home of the brave."
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#43
10-14-2008, 11:26 AM
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Jest
I agree with all your thoughts. Europe will have some of the same problem when going to the countryside as we got rid of the local train in the 60's and 70's (with a few exceptions). I have heard many Americans recently saying that they were driving less (your gas consumption proves it) so keep up. Personnaly, my point is not to get rid of cars but to have the car business working a little bit more in everyones interest (their own included). I'm not really interested in electric cars and don't think they are a solution (unless you want a world full of used batteries we cannot get rid of). At least we won't have to fear from global warming, we will simply have to deal with acid rains... However, using some waste sounds as an idea to develop and using less oil to power a car sound definitely as a good one (already well under way). No reason to change your way of life then.
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#44
10-14-2008, 12:52 PM
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As for the whole battery idea, I totaly agree, that is what people do not think of when they talk of the alternative electric vehicles. The batteries need to be replaced every six or so years, then what does one do with them?
__________________
"God bless America, the land of the free, but only so long as it remains the home of the brave."
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#45
10-14-2008, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Chuck M.
__________________
Slave to 1 cat.
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#46
10-14-2008, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Chuck M.
__________________
Slave to 1 cat.
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#47
10-14-2008, 06:57 PM
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Quote:
__________________
Slave to 1 cat.
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#48
10-15-2008, 01:02 AM
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Quote:
__________________
"It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli
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#49
10-15-2008, 11:05 AM
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Yes, as I mentioned before, it is human nature to loath change, and that is the problem with big cars, as I said, it is part of the car culture that we developed as a nation. And another thing on that line. Everyone says we should convert to more effeicnet vehicles. That is what we hear from the hollywierd elite. They fail to grasp that a persons car is usualy the second largest investment a person makes after a home. They are a bit pricey and folks buy them on credit usualy, paying them off over a couple years. With the new technology of bio diesel, and fuel cells and electric vehicles and all the other types they are a signifigant amount higher in purchase cost than the vehicle one has now, so where on earth does a common person get the money to pay for it? I imagine it would be like trying to carry on a meaningful conversation with the likes of Paris Hilton, they just don't comprehend. Kinda like like what Marie Antonette allegedly said, "Well if the pesants don't have bread, then let them eat cake." ARGH!!!! I suggest that alot of the technology that is on the market today is transtional and whatever it is that is eventualy developed will replace gasoline and these other methods. Or humanity will return to living in the dark at night. As for biodiesel and alcohol, those are agricultural products and are labor and fuel intensive not to mention land intensive which poses their own problems. Hmmm, hydro power, solar power, tidal power, geothermal power <a finite resource as well, but not for several thousand years> nuclear power, again finite, but still long term. However, the whole methane generator systems that I have seen and read about seem encouraging, a dairy farm is able to supply its own power for operations and send some back into the grid, that is encouraging. Imagine what could be done with a municiple sewage plant? Just build a dome over the ponds much like they do with desalinization plants to collect the methane and bleed it off.
__________________
"God bless America, the land of the free, but only so long as it remains the home of the brave."
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#50
10-15-2008, 12:54 PM
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Understand your point about less advantaged people but that would probably be a typical American problem at the moment. As you said that is part of your culture and you'll have to face a huge infrastructure problem. However, the most famous American car in history remained the "Ford T" and that is far from being big.
Europeans tend to use smaller car as we have less free space to drive them may be. That's also why I prefer to do better with existing technologies. It is cheaper to make more effecient fuel engines that to make brand new engines using the best improvement we can think of. In France, for now, when you buy less consuming vehicles you get a 700€ to 1200€ (the second bonus remain a dream to these days) bonus from the state (roughly 1000$ to 1600$) + an average constructor bonus of 2000€. That makes people think. You also can sell your older models for a guaranted price: I sold my wife 20 years old city car for 2500-3000€ (constructor bonus included; hey they are not crazy). Moreover, they are curently taking out several cars that will cost you less than 9000€. Still a big investment but affordable by more people. Of course they are not the less consuming ones and the most fancy cars but they are now very decent for that price with plenty of room for the family. The Funny thing is that these car were first bought by wealthy people (guess why ). Nevertheless, one of my neighbour, who happen to be one of the poorest familly around, just bought one going from a near ruin to a decent vehicle. They are nice people and I was truly happy for them.A side advantage is that they don't rely on much electronics and would work in T2K. Here is the most popular model at the moment in France: the Logan MCV.
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#51
10-15-2008, 10:03 PM
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One again apologies in advance for any offence but it really pisses me off when people buy big four wheel drives (what Americans call SUVs) but they never leave urban areas. I have no problem with people owning four wheel drives because they need off-road and/or towing capability but owning an SUV or huge pickup truck for urban driving strikes me as, well, blindingly stupid.
__________________
"It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli
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#52
10-16-2008, 01:42 AM
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Then we are in agreement!!!!! I HATE the soccer moms who have the super monster truck, and the only off roading they do is when they drive on the sidewalk because it is to much vehicle for them to handle. I remember when I worked for the V.A. hospital the number two person in charge a royal bitch, had a mustange and a super monster truck. She would damn near run me over each time she drove the mustang, and she would take up three parking spaces and take out some of the grass from her idiot park job. One day I asked if she liked doing out door or what she hauled with it. I already knew the answer. Her reply was "Oh I don't, I just like the security and being up high to see." Oh, she also remarked how cute my lil jeep was. But, my jeep actualy had mud on the tires and knew the fun of a country dirt road in the desert and mountains.. I know so many idiots who have monester trucks like that and they have my contempt. What is even funnier, is in metro LA they have 4 wheel drives and it rains, they put their vehicles in 4 wheel drive! ARGH!!!! someone shoot me now! As for multiple cars per family, generaly it is two cars per family. Of course lots of teenagers end up with cars too, not all mind you but a good portion, most often they buy them with money earned themselves and this can increase the number. I am weird, I have right now, six, no seven cars. well five cars and two trucks! One is in the process of transfering to a freind, one needs a new engine in the garage, that is converted for desert treks, one is in the garage well, its a FIAT, my uncle left it to me. One is my uncles working car that he left me, another is a car I let my uncle use until he killed it and didn't get rid of, another is a tired worn out diesel volkswagen I drove, and my current primary car. Of course when it comes down two it, I will have three cars, or two and a truck, of course one was left to me. As I said I am different. But, two cars is the norm here, at least in the bedroom communities of California. And as I said we do not have a mass transit system worth a damn. The bottom line, alot of people have a commute of 40 plus miles to work each way. For me, a 30 to 40 minute commute is pretty good, and that is the case for most people in my city.
__________________
"God bless America, the land of the free, but only so long as it remains the home of the brave."
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#53
10-16-2008, 03:46 AM
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A small story about this (true one as I have an eyewitness to it): a man (obviously wealthy) is trying to find a parking space for its large Jaguar. After 30 minutes running around the block he finally find one. A little girl (in her 20's) jumped in with her tiny austin mini. The guy is mad and ask her to leaving pointing out that he was there first (he is right about this). Her answer is "I'm young and pretty, I can do as I please". The man doesn't say a word, gets back to his car, puts it on rear and crushes the austin mini. He goes out before leaving and tells her "I'm old, mean and I have the best insurance, have a good day". Then, he left the spot while the girl was crying on her ruined car. I hope I have been clear as I love that one. About the guys putting there FWD with rain that might be justified. I have a small suzuki jimny (really tiny) and I'm in the mountain so i'm using it often. However, when it rains, if you don't put the FWD on you have a good chance to jump off the cliff after two or three turns. That is also true when driving on a nice strait road. It is the only problem that I can see with this car. Otherwise, you can almost climb trees with it. By the way my other car is a regular drive one but with reinforced floor as the roads in my area are not that good. Most roads have only enough room for one car but they are two ways with trucks and buses taking them. I'm laughing my ass off each time I see some city guy with a Hummvee; strangely only city guys have Hummvees. In my area the most common FWD will be japanese models with Lada Niva coming second and Land rovers (mostly older models) coming third.
Last edited by Mohoender; 10-16-2008 at 03:49 AM.
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#54
10-16-2008, 04:40 AM
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Bon dia!
I confirm the point about the moms in hug cars. We have the same species here. Same arguments: high driving position, safety, bla,bla,bla... I have the big luck to live at only 2 Km from my working place . So I normally go to work in my bicycle or on foot. I live in a town with roughly 10.000 inhabitant, so nearly everybody who is working in my same industrial park lives between 1 and 3 km from the working place. But I'm nearly the only person in the entire park that not goes there by car. The others are the teenagers not older enough to get the driving licence (18 years in Spain). One worker, one car. Hundreds of cars running, only to cover 4 km per day... And I know that each of this persons can give me a handful of reasons to use the car in such a small run... Strange think our advanced society... Perhaps it sound stupid but I think that little things like that causes our western world to lose momentum.
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#55
10-16-2008, 04:54 AM
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Marc
I don't think it sounds stupid, I even have a neighbour who takes her car to bring her kids to school (300 meters away) and, then, back home. . Watch the south african movie "the gods must be crazy", it says it all.Your position might be a little old fashioned but still very accurate to these days (saddly in my opinion).
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#56
10-16-2008, 04:57 AM
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I cycle to and from work too and when I have a motorised vehicle it is a motorbike. Not riding a motorbike at the moment though because every motorbike I've ever owned I've written off and my shoulder is still recovering from my last big crash.
The "better safety" argument used by "soccer moms" is incredibly selfish because while it might be safer for them and their family it makes it less safe for other road users. And sure, they are high up so they have better visibility but it reduces visibility for the smaller vehicles around them. I have nothing but contempt for that mindset. I want to keep my family safe too but not if it means metaphorically flipping the bird to the rest of my community. Rant over.
__________________
"It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli
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#57
10-16-2008, 04:42 PM
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I'm still for the consumer choosing what he/she wants along with the free market but I'll leave it at this, if you're willing to pay for it and not complain, then more power to you. I do agree though that using a Hummer to shuttle kids to soccer practice is a bit over the top. Chuck M.
__________________
Slave to 1 cat. Last edited by Nowhere Man 1966; 10-16-2008 at 04:44 PM.
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#58
10-16-2008, 10:01 PM
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Apologies again for any offence but "we have a free market economy so it is fair and reasonable for anyone with sufficient money to drive whatever they like and burn as much fuel as they like" strikes me as greedy and, dare I say it, ignorant. One day, hopefully, currently underdeveloped countries will become developed countries and will need raw materials and things like crude oil and they'll look around and realise that in the decades and centuries before the countries that became developed and rich first used everything up. And used up the resources in an incredibly wasteful way which just adds insult to injury. As a person living in a rich western country I feel very guilty about these things. We tend not to care about those that will come after us and especially seem not to care about those who will come after us who are not part of our own nation or culture.
__________________
"It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli
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#59
10-16-2008, 11:52 PM
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