The loss of modern infantry weapons

[kalos72]

So do you think I am over thinking the problem of arming a few thousand militiaman with a decent, standardized, combat rifle?

[Webstral]

Kalos, I don't think you are overthinking the problem at all. You have to set your own standard for realism. I encourage you to think through the most important aspects of arming a militia.

The real killer for assault rifles after the nuclear exchange isn't going to be over-use. The real killer is going to be neglect and other types of improper maintenance. Even on Manhattan, owners of M16 type rifles aren't going to be firing a magazine of ammunition every day. In most locations, the rifles may go weeks without being discharged. This isn't to say that some rifles won't wear out from overuse. However, the need to conserve ammunition will prompt the most heavy users of assault rifles in CONUS to emphasize good rifle marksmanship over spray-and-pray. Again, there will be those who empty magazines to no effect; but they won't last long. By 2000, pretty much all of the assault rifle users will have figured out the mismatch between the rifle's ability to fire ammunition and the local ability to replace it.

Regular, disciplined maintenance of firearms will be a serious issue in 2000. Rust happens. For the M16 family, diligent maintenance is a must.

I try to avoid allowing the information contained in a module to override my common sense. In the case of M16s in New York, a working M16 is going to be worth a lot. Its high magazine capacity, low recoil, and emphasis on use against targets at ranges closer than 400 meters make it a good weapon for the urban jungle of Manhattan. Close quarters combat will feature prominently in the tactics of the so-called armies of the night. The M16 has an excellent mix of features for offsetting the potential advantage of the gangs' inclination to mass, move under cover, and assault in numbers as a means of negating the defenders' fire. In other words, what M16s are available are going to be prized possessions. Some explanation ought to be offered for why a working M16 is being sold by anybody. Equipping a unit of any size with M16s deserves some explanation. I commend you for putting some thought into your work.

Webstral

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by kalos72

So do you think I am over thinking the problem of arming a few thousand militiaman with a decent, standardized, combat rifle?

not at all .It gives the campaign credibility if details like this has been thought through .

[Legbreaker]

With regard to the availability ratings, they should be used as a reflection on how many of a certain item are in the area, but not how many are actually available for purchase. Remember, theft/scrounging happens and this is where the availability ratings really become important.

As far as producing quality weapons, that's just not going to happen in 2000-2001 unless you're sitting on top of a prewar weapon and/or munitions factory. Even then you still need to power it and supply the materials to produce any really significant quantities.

From say 1998 through to around 2010, I'd have to say most weapons arming militia groups will be prewar civilian weapons with a sprinkling of military weapons "found" laying about somewhere. There is also likely to be a high percentage of more primative weapons - bows, crossbows, slingshots, etc. Depending on resources, some of the more simple firearms may also be produced as previously mentioned - basic SMGs, single shot rifles and shotguns, and so on.

Once the society gets itself back on it's feet a bit and industry can be reestablished, then production of more advanced weapons and ammo can take place.

I see a period from roughly 2-3 years after the nukes through to the beginning of advanced production where weapon numbers will far oustrip ammo supply - each rifle might be down to just a handful of rounds and so most combat will be with the bows, etc.

[Abbott Shaull]

Stamped sub-machineguns would be the easiest thing to mass produce on the limited basis. Considering Oldsmobile plants that made light fixtures were used to make M3 Sub-machineguns.

The hard part would be to get the material for production. One has to remember there several varieties that one could go with.

AK family had several stamp parts.

After that it would be limited production of weapons. Gun smith in a community would be commodity that a one wouldn't want to let them go. Apprenticeship with them would be sought after too.

Leg does bring up a good point. Not much sense producing weapons if you don't have supply of ammo.

One might even see local militia using old black powder weapons too. Seeing a unit lining up facing an enemy that they 'know' don't have more advance weapons in their inventory. There was a reason why they included rules for bows and crossbows in the game......

[Legbreaker]

Don't forget oversized tripod mounted crossbows for checkpoints and guard houses. They don't fire often, but should make a significantly large mess of softskin vehicles.
If you're feeling really keen, strap an explosive charge of some type on the missile with an impact detonator. That should mess up most APCs although I don't know how safe it would be to fire....

[kalos72]

I like the explosive crossbow bolt idea alot actually...

I would think you could run the mass of a militias force with more primitive weapons, perhaps even limiting the firearms to a "weapons platoon" or something. Leaving a mechanized reaction force equipped with military style weaponry to deal with bigger threats. Plus you would still have simple mortars for indirect fire support.

Or even just keep the militias as part of internal security freeing the more advanced weaponry for the less secure areas of your area.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I tend to basically agree with most thoughts here. I think you would see the most skilled shooters given the better quality military or civilian firearms because they could make the most impact with them and the militias main body would be equipped with whatever they could bring or find.

You may have one platoon equipped with hunting rifles and shotguns and another with military rifles simply out of necessity although I do very much agree that ammunition will be the real deciding factor - why give some nervous kid just recruited into the militia a semi-automatic rifle when you could give him a single shot bolt-action (that way you teach him to make each shot count)

You could even have special units with bows as their main weapon with rifles as a backup.The benefit of the bow and arrow is it's relatively quiet and you can sometimes recover your ammo. You form some people into a stealthy unit to sneak into range on the flanks of the bad guys, pepper them with arrows for a minute or so then they pull back. This can be very demoralizing and you've not had to waste many if any hard to replace bullets.

[Slappy]

As for the specific point on cost and availability in the module, here's my take.

Common: I'd say that it would be common to find one at a street market, maybe two. Some weeks there will be none, sometimes as many as a dozen from several sellers if someone has recently found a cache. The condition of the items may vary. Some will be in good shape, some nearly unusable due to poor maintenance or overuse. I don't think that it would be possible to buy more than a few without eating up the available supply. The market just isn't that deep. No one is sitting on crates and crates waiting for a wholesale deal. They would have already made one with the Mayor or another militia.

$600: This is the usual price and it's fairly expensive. I don't have my referencs, but that is the equivalent of something like 100 liters of ethanol or 200 kg of food, enough to feed someone for a month or two if I remember. Not that many people have that sort of cash. These sales would be fairly rare. That's why the market isn't that deep. There aren't that many qualified buyers. The resources required to buy 20 M-16s and hundreds of rounds of ammo are only available to a handful of people on the island. If you wanted more M-16s, expect the price to climb steeply after the first couple.

C / $600 is a perfectly reasonable assingment, just don't expect to go back to that well too often.

[weswood]

You could also use a catapult or small trebuchet for indirect fire weapons at strongpoints. A small keg of gunpowder or burning pitch could ruin someone's day.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by kalos72

I like the explosive crossbow bolt idea alot actually...

Just be aware that there's unlikely to be any safety mechanism on these munitions. Once the fuse/deonator has been installed, the slightest touch could potentially be fatal. Also, depending one what's being used, the shock of firing might be enough to detonate....

It's an assignment that would very quickly be seen as a death sentence by many.

Depending on the skill of the gunsmith or mechanic involved, they might be made a bit safer. Where penetration isn't necessary, hand grenades could be used as the explosive, with the pin pulled before firing and the grenade breaking loose of it's "launch platform" on striking the target, thereby releasing the lever.

As mentioned in Airlords of the Ozarks, grenades in glass jars could be useful too - put a handful in a catapult instead of dropping them from above.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Don't forget oversized tripod mounted crossbows for checkpoints and guard houses. They don't fire often, but should make a significantly large mess of softskin vehicles.
If you're feeling really keen, strap an explosive charge of some type on the missile with an impact detonator. That should mess up most APCs although I don't know how safe it would be to fire....

Abso-wuckin-lutely. As many of you know I've played a great deal of Harnmaster, a highly realistic, low-fantasy RPG set in medieval times. In that game heavy crossbows and particularly arbalests ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbalest ) are weapons to be truly feared, even by the most heavily armored knights. You generally need a hand crank or other mechanical device to load them so their rate of fire is low but if they hit you're steaming meat, real fast. An arbalest bolt would punch right through a car door and probably also the opposite door too.

[pmulcahy11b]

It's not too accurate, but a catapult or trebuchet might make a good mortar substitute, especially with a flaming payload. Several large rocks in one load might make a good substitute for ICM. Or better yet, a load of grenades.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

It's not too accurate, but a catapult or trebuchet might make a good mortar substitute, especially with a flaming payload. Several large rocks in one load might make a good substitute for ICM. Or better yet, a load of grenades.

Ooh, I like the grenades idea. But how to detonate them? Tape them around a primer charge with some kind of impact fuze? You'd really want to avoid them exploding before they leave the weapon.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Don't forget oversized tripod mounted crossbows for checkpoints and guard houses. They don't fire often, but should make a significantly large mess of softskin vehicles.
If you're feeling really keen, strap an explosive charge of some type on the missile with an impact detonator. That should mess up most APCs although I don't know how safe it would be to fire....

You have thought about way too much. Gee. Go back 400 years some distant battle field...

Those guys are getting too close time to break down and move.... George don't forget the tripod this time.....lol

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull

You have thought about way too much. Gee. Go back 400 years some distant battle field...

That makes no sense.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

That makes no sense.

I think what he was saying was that by going back to crossbows one is ignoring 400 years of technology.

As far a crossbows go, I can certainly see areas without much of an industrial base going in that direction, but there was a reason those weapons were for the most part abandoned 400 years ago.

I have not had much time recently so this is my first post in this thread. One thing to remember is that Ney York City has the largest port on the East Coast. Millions of tons of war material would have traveled through the area. A portion is going to get stolen and a portion is going to be in the rail yards, on the docks or just loaded onto ships when TDM happens. You also have the lost weapons of the Police/MP and elements of the 85th infantry Division.

IMO NYC is going to have a larger proportion of Military small arms floating around it's populace than most areas of the country. Personally my goals would be to capture and refurbish them.