The loss of modern infantry weapons

[Legbreaker]

Don't forget oversized tripod mounted crossbows for checkpoints and guard houses. They don't fire often, but should make a significantly large mess of softskin vehicles.
If you're feeling really keen, strap an explosive charge of some type on the missile with an impact detonator. That should mess up most APCs although I don't know how safe it would be to fire....

[kalos72]

I like the explosive crossbow bolt idea alot actually...

I would think you could run the mass of a militias force with more primitive weapons, perhaps even limiting the firearms to a "weapons platoon" or something. Leaving a mechanized reaction force equipped with military style weaponry to deal with bigger threats. Plus you would still have simple mortars for indirect fire support.

Or even just keep the militias as part of internal security freeing the more advanced weaponry for the less secure areas of your area.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I tend to basically agree with most thoughts here. I think you would see the most skilled shooters given the better quality military or civilian firearms because they could make the most impact with them and the militias main body would be equipped with whatever they could bring or find.

You may have one platoon equipped with hunting rifles and shotguns and another with military rifles simply out of necessity although I do very much agree that ammunition will be the real deciding factor - why give some nervous kid just recruited into the militia a semi-automatic rifle when you could give him a single shot bolt-action (that way you teach him to make each shot count)

You could even have special units with bows as their main weapon with rifles as a backup.The benefit of the bow and arrow is it's relatively quiet and you can sometimes recover your ammo. You form some people into a stealthy unit to sneak into range on the flanks of the bad guys, pepper them with arrows for a minute or so then they pull back. This can be very demoralizing and you've not had to waste many if any hard to replace bullets.

[Slappy]

As for the specific point on cost and availability in the module, here's my take.

Common: I'd say that it would be common to find one at a street market, maybe two. Some weeks there will be none, sometimes as many as a dozen from several sellers if someone has recently found a cache. The condition of the items may vary. Some will be in good shape, some nearly unusable due to poor maintenance or overuse. I don't think that it would be possible to buy more than a few without eating up the available supply. The market just isn't that deep. No one is sitting on crates and crates waiting for a wholesale deal. They would have already made one with the Mayor or another militia.

$600: This is the usual price and it's fairly expensive. I don't have my referencs, but that is the equivalent of something like 100 liters of ethanol or 200 kg of food, enough to feed someone for a month or two if I remember. Not that many people have that sort of cash. These sales would be fairly rare. That's why the market isn't that deep. There aren't that many qualified buyers. The resources required to buy 20 M-16s and hundreds of rounds of ammo are only available to a handful of people on the island. If you wanted more M-16s, expect the price to climb steeply after the first couple.

C / $600 is a perfectly reasonable assingment, just don't expect to go back to that well too often.

[weswood]

You could also use a catapult or small trebuchet for indirect fire weapons at strongpoints. A small keg of gunpowder or burning pitch could ruin someone's day.

[kalos72]

Imagine an M3 chambered for a 5.56Nato round...

[Targan]

Originally Posted by kalos72

Imagine an M3 chambered for a 5.56Nato round...

I can't. For many reasons such a conversion wouldn't be possible. Or rather, you would have to re-work almost every major component of the weapon so there would be little if any of the original weapon left. The M3 is a blowback operated weapon firing from an open bolt. It fires a .45 pistol round. I'm happy to be corrected but I don't know of any 5.56mm weapons that use a blowback, open bolt system. You'd have to massively reinforce the whole receiver. Then there is the magazine well and the mags. And that tiny length, narrow barrel would have to be replaced with a much heavier barrel to avoid it rupturing and probably much longer one (or be prepared for a really fearsome muzzle flash). I'm sure others can think of even more problems with a 5.56 conversion for the M3.

[kalos72]

Targan - You seem to know alot about the physical aspects of the weapons, could you make an M16 out of recycled/smelted steel given a good machine shop and skill?

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by kalos72

I like the explosive crossbow bolt idea alot actually...

Just be aware that there's unlikely to be any safety mechanism on these munitions. Once the fuse/deonator has been installed, the slightest touch could potentially be fatal. Also, depending one what's being used, the shock of firing might be enough to detonate....

It's an assignment that would very quickly be seen as a death sentence by many.

Depending on the skill of the gunsmith or mechanic involved, they might be made a bit safer. Where penetration isn't necessary, hand grenades could be used as the explosive, with the pin pulled before firing and the grenade breaking loose of it's "launch platform" on striking the target, thereby releasing the lever.

As mentioned in Airlords of the Ozarks, grenades in glass jars could be useful too - put a handful in a catapult instead of dropping them from above.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Don't forget oversized tripod mounted crossbows for checkpoints and guard houses. They don't fire often, but should make a significantly large mess of softskin vehicles.
If you're feeling really keen, strap an explosive charge of some type on the missile with an impact detonator. That should mess up most APCs although I don't know how safe it would be to fire....

Abso-wuckin-lutely. As many of you know I've played a great deal of Harnmaster, a highly realistic, low-fantasy RPG set in medieval times. In that game heavy crossbows and particularly arbalests ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbalest ) are weapons to be truly feared, even by the most heavily armored knights. You generally need a hand crank or other mechanical device to load them so their rate of fire is low but if they hit you're steaming meat, real fast. An arbalest bolt would punch right through a car door and probably also the opposite door too.

[pmulcahy11b]

It's not too accurate, but a catapult or trebuchet might make a good mortar substitute, especially with a flaming payload. Several large rocks in one load might make a good substitute for ICM. Or better yet, a load of grenades.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

It's not too accurate, but a catapult or trebuchet might make a good mortar substitute, especially with a flaming payload. Several large rocks in one load might make a good substitute for ICM. Or better yet, a load of grenades.

Ooh, I like the grenades idea. But how to detonate them? Tape them around a primer charge with some kind of impact fuze? You'd really want to avoid them exploding before they leave the weapon.

[Targan]

Kalos, perhaps these old threads might contain information useful to you:

Improvised Ammunition = http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=13

Ammo Reloading = http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=600 (you'll probably remember this thread as you started it )

Can anyone remember other threads that might be useful?

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Targan

Ooh, I like the grenades idea. But how to detonate them? Tape them around a primer charge with some kind of impact fuze? You'd really want to avoid them exploding before they leave the weapon.

Maybe futz with the fuzes -- remember that batch of fuzes for F-1 grenades that US special ops troops found in Lebanon in the 1980s? They had delays ranging from 0-13 seconds (depending on the fuze).

[jester]

I would think something along the lines of a Mini 14 or a AR 18 would work better than going for a M16, the Mini 14 is forged with a basic Garand style action which is simple, rialable and durable.

Or the AR-18 which is cool, alot of it is a stamped reciever again simple to make with less resources.

I would use a gas system similiar to a M14 or a FN/FAL to deal with the varied powder.

As for the catapult, just load it with a basked full of fist sized rocks so when it flies the rocks fill the sky and land. On massed troop formations it will do damage and break bones.

As for grenades, fulminate of mercury <like in caps> can be the detonator, make the "grenades" into dart like shapes with a weighted end where your "cap" igniter is thus setting the bomb off.

Another option, regular grenades in a jar or even a can with the top cut off, pull the pins, let the jar or can hold the lever down. When the thing flies it will come loose and well you will have a good number of airburst explosions <more effective than impact for troops> or when they hit the ground the jar breacks, letting the lever fly or is tossed from the can again letting the spoon fly, end result lots of explosions.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by jester

As for grenades, fulminate of mercury <like in caps> can be the detonator, make the "grenades" into dart like shapes with a weighted end where your "cap" igniter is thus setting the bomb off.

I like this. It would be easy to attach some kind of tail to a grenade to make the end with the impact fuze hit the ground first.

Originally Posted by jester

Another option, regular grenades in a jar or even a can with the top cut off, pull the pins, let the jar or can hold the lever down. When the thing flies it will come loose and well you will have a good number of airburst explosions <more effective than impact for troops> or when they hit the ground the jar breacks, letting the lever fly or is tossed from the can again letting the spoon fly, end result lots of explosions.

They use that very method in Airlords of the Ozarks. It is a clever idea.

Edit: Legbreaker already pointed out the Airlords of the Ozards connection.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Targan

Ooh, I like the grenades idea. But how to detonate them?

Dead simple. Put the grenades in glass or clay jars which will shatter on impact. Pull the pins just before firing.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Dead simple. Put the grenades in glass or clay jars which will shatter on impact. Pull the pins just before firing.

The Viet Cong had a similar boobytrap -- they put the grenades inside clods of clay, covered them to look like dirt clods, then put them on roads and trails. GI kicks the clod by accident or on purpose, and BOOM!

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Don't forget oversized tripod mounted crossbows for checkpoints and guard houses. They don't fire often, but should make a significantly large mess of softskin vehicles.
If you're feeling really keen, strap an explosive charge of some type on the missile with an impact detonator. That should mess up most APCs although I don't know how safe it would be to fire....

You have thought about way too much. Gee. Go back 400 years some distant battle field...

Those guys are getting too close time to break down and move.... George don't forget the tripod this time.....lol

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull

You have thought about way too much. Gee. Go back 400 years some distant battle field...

That makes no sense.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

That makes no sense.

I think what he was saying was that by going back to crossbows one is ignoring 400 years of technology.

As far a crossbows go, I can certainly see areas without much of an industrial base going in that direction, but there was a reason those weapons were for the most part abandoned 400 years ago.

I have not had much time recently so this is my first post in this thread. One thing to remember is that Ney York City has the largest port on the East Coast. Millions of tons of war material would have traveled through the area. A portion is going to get stolen and a portion is going to be in the rail yards, on the docks or just loaded onto ships when TDM happens. You also have the lost weapons of the Police/MP and elements of the 85th infantry Division.

IMO NYC is going to have a larger proportion of Military small arms floating around it's populace than most areas of the country. Personally my goals would be to capture and refurbish them.

[Webstral]

I can't remember if I posted this anywhere else, so at the risk of repeating myself I gave the manufacture of small arms within SAMAD (Thunder Empire) some thought. There is a great deal of 5.56mm brass and filled ammo around, plus reloading equipment, courtesy of the Pentagon's Division of Contingency Planning. There is also some 9mm Parabellum and a comparatively large quantity of 7.62x51mm ammo and equipment. Unexpectedly, gangs of Phoenix discovered a train load of .357 Magnum which was abandoned in Phoenix some time in late 1997 or early 1998. No one knows the story behind why such a large shipment of what is essentially civilian handgun ammunition was moving through Phoenix, but one does not look a gift horse in the mouth.

(SAMAD traded the gangs for the ammunition, which opens a whole other can of worms about ethics. During 1999, Huachuca had a bare-bones idea of what was going on in Phoenix, even if the gruesome details were a bit out of focus. There were no illusions that by trading food and other finished goods for the trainload of .357 ammunition and a host of scavenged materials that Huachuca, in effect, was providing material support for Phoenix's armies of the night, Mayors, and Dukes. But I digress...)

The gunsmiths and workshops of SAMAD design a handful of weapons to use the available mix of ammunition. The following notes reflect the status as of early 2001.

The so-called "SKH" is essentially an SKS chambered for 5.56 NATO. The manufacturers use as many stamped parts as possible, given their circumstances. Like the SKS, the SKH is a semi-auto rifle with an integral ten-round magazine and no autofire capability. The stock and all wooden parts are of mesquite. The barrel is somewhat longer than the barrel of the SKS, which compensates somewhat for the limited quality of barrel manufacture SAMAD can manage. Effective range is about 250 meters.

The Huachuca SMG is a copy of the PPsH-41 SMG manufactured by the Soviets during the Great Patriotic War. The Huachuca version is chambered for .357 Magnum, since there is a good deal of it available from 1999 onwards. Some modifications have been made, such as the addition of a forward grip. [Author's note: I have to do some more research on how the .357 brass is going to interact with the bolt face.] The finished product superficially resembles a Thompson SMG.

SAMAD also manufactures a pump-action shotgun based on the Mossberg 500. Stock and forward pistol grip are of mesquite.

A battle rifle based on the Springfield 1903 is also in very limited production. The Huachuca version has some modifications to simplify manufacture. Effective range is reduced somewhat as a consequence of the manufacturing trade-offs. The rifle fires the same 7.62x51mm round as the M60 MG. All wooden parts are of mesquite.

SAMAD also produces a six-shot .357 Magnum revolver as its standard side arm and for the civilian market. (Despite the authoritarian nature of the SAMAD government by 2001, the right of the citizenry to self-defense is recognized. Few can afford one of these revolvers, so carrying one becomes something of a status symbol.)

The long-term goal of manufacturing small arms is the creation of a strong export capacity, in addition to the provision of arms for the forces of SAMAD. Huachuca wants to (re-)equip militias throughout Arizona. Ideally, Huachuca will have something to offer MilGov during the inevitable reconciliation talks. Perhaps even more significantly, around the time that an American Special Operations team is recovering a downed weather satellite in southern Baja California, Constitutionalist forces in California initiate operations to secure the entirety of the Baja. The Second Mexican Civil War offers the Americans the opportunity to pit Mexican factions against each other and possibly replace the existing Mexican government with one that will be much friendlier to the US. Unfortunately, Colorado Springs is not in a position to take advantage of this opportunity. Fort Huachuca is. The provision of small arms and ammunition on any scale will be welcome and (hopefully) remembered by the Constitutionalist government of Mexico.

Webstral

[chico20854]

In the 1990s, the US Government destroyed or otherwise disposed of the following small arms:

400,000 M1 Rifles
125,000 M2 Carbines
575,000 M14 Rifles
650,000 M16 Rifles
115,000 M4 Carbines
75,000 M1903 Rifles
100,000 M1911 Pistols
62,000 Browning Automatic Rifles
35,000 M3 Submachineguns
14,000 M177 Carbines
12,000 M2 Machine Guns
21,000 M1919 Machine Guns

This was the result of the post-Cold War drawdown, in which a policy decision was made to reduce the military small arms stockpile from "3 weapons for every member of the military" to "2 weapons for every member of the military". Such was the Cold War determination to avoid a repeat of the situation in 1940, when many US Army units went on exercises with broomsticks rather than rifles.

Given the rather modest increase in the size of the US military in the v1 1996 and 1997 and the very real spectre of nuclear war hanging over the heads of government authorities for almost a year before it actually happened, it is likely that a great number of these weapons (and hundreds of thousands of their civilian equivalents) were distributed to state guards, law enforcement bodies and FEMA stockpiles like the one detailed in Allegheny Uprising, along with attendant ammo stockpiles (last year the last of the US Army 30-06 ammo for Garands was sold off).

There should be plenty of relatively modern military small arms available for militia units. The issue in 2000-01 is going to be the ammo supply and, if for some reason the militia wasn't founded in 1997 or 1998, finding and standardizing on a few weapons types.

IMHO.

[jester]

Originally Posted by chico20854

in the 1990s, the us government destroyed or otherwise disposed of the following small arms:

400,000 m1 rifles
125,000 m2 carbines
575,000 m14 rifles
650,000 m16 rifles
115,000 m4 carbines
75,000 m1903 rifles
100,000 m1911 pistols
62,000 browning automatic rifles
35,000 m3 submachineguns
14,000 m177 carbines
12,000 m2 machine guns
21,000 m1919 machine guns

this was the result of the post-cold war drawdown, in which a policy decision was made to reduce the military small arms stockpile from "3 weapons for every member of the military" to "2 weapons for every member of the military". Such was the cold war determination to avoid a repeat of the situation in 1940, when many us army units went on exercises with broomsticks rather than rifles.

Given the rather modest increase in the size of the us military in the v1 1996 and 1997 and the very real spectre of nuclear war hanging over the heads of government authorities for almost a year before it actually happened, it is likely that a great number of these weapons (and hundreds of thousands of their civilian equivalents) were distributed to state guards, law enforcement bodies and fema stockpiles like the one detailed in allegheny uprising, along with attendant ammo stockpiles (last year the last of the us army 30-06 ammo for garands was sold off).

There should be plenty of relatively modern military small arms available for militia units. The issue in 2000-01 is going to be the ammo supply and, if for some reason the militia wasn't founded in 1997 or 1998, finding and standardizing on a few weapons types.

Imho.

nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooo!

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by chico20854

In the 1990s, the US Government destroyed or otherwise disposed of the following small arms:

400,000 M1 Rifles
125,000 M2 Carbines
575,000 M14 Rifles
650,000 M16 Rifles
115,000 M4 Carbines
75,000 M1903 Rifles
100,000 M1911 Pistols
62,000 Browning Automatic Rifles
35,000 M3 Submachineguns
14,000 M177 Carbines
12,000 M2 Machine Guns
21,000 M1919 Machine Guns

This was the result of the post-Cold War drawdown, in which a policy decision was made to reduce the military small arms stockpile from "3 weapons for every member of the military" to "2 weapons for every member of the military". Such was the Cold War determination to avoid a repeat of the situation in 1940, when many US Army units went on exercises with broomsticks rather than rifles.

Given the rather modest increase in the size of the US military in the v1 1996 and 1997 and the very real spectre of nuclear war hanging over the heads of government authorities for almost a year before it actually happened, it is likely that a great number of these weapons (and hundreds of thousands of their civilian equivalents) were distributed to state guards, law enforcement bodies and FEMA stockpiles like the one detailed in Allegheny Uprising, along with attendant ammo stockpiles (last year the last of the US Army 30-06 ammo for Garands was sold off).

There should be plenty of relatively modern military small arms available for militia units. The issue in 2000-01 is going to be the ammo supply and, if for some reason the militia wasn't founded in 1997 or 1998, finding and standardizing on a few weapons types.

IMHO.

Great information, Chico. Thanks for doing the leg work. I feel obliged to point out that existing in a storage depot is not the same as widely available for use. Nevertheless, given the number of modern firearms available, I think one could easily make a case for any given organization having access to at least some kind of modern rifle--provided one is willing to trace the path of the weapons from storage to the hands of the owners. The list above includes two million rifles and carbines. This is a lot of hardware, but we should bear in mind that before the nukes fly there are 290 million (give or take) Americans. Setting aside stocks of weapons not destroyed because the Cold War didn't end, the above list is sufficient to provide roughly one American in every 149 or 150 with a modern rifle. Even if these rifles were evenly distributed across the nation, somebody is going to have to go without. Halving the population as of early 2001 doesn't solve the problem because this stockpile of weapons are going to suffer from its own types of attrition. Still, given the sheer numbers of rifles involved, I'd buy off on any well-considered explanation for how a militia gets hold of 1,000 modern rifles after the Exchange.

By the way, the numbers involved make it a lot easier for someone to claim that rifles were set aside during the July-November period in 1997. This is how Fort Huachuca gets most of its hardware. Surely Huachuca isn't the only place in the country where materiel was sent in the event that the worst occurred.

Webstral