The loss of modern infantry weapons

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by kalos72

Are .223 and .308 the same rounds are 5.56 and 7.62Nato rounds, just the civilian versions? If so I can see the logic in making bolt action rifles to those calibers for a bit of standardization at least.

The general differences between the civilian and military versions are the propellant charge and the thickness of the case walls. Military ammunition generally is more powerful than its civilian counterpart due to the composition and amount of its propellant, and most civilian rifles are not actually stressed to fire it without causing damage to the rifle in the long term.

And of course, I will stress that this is a generalization, and like all else, is not always true.

[Legbreaker]

Back in the early 90's when we used to use the local civilian range for our L1A1's, it was fairly common to trade the expended issued brass with the local gunclub. The .308 brass they had wasn't as good for reloading as the 7.62N.

[Trooper]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Back in the early 90's when we used to use the local civilian range for our L1A1's, it was fairly common to trade the expended issued brass with the local gunclub. The .308 brass they had wasn't as good for reloading as the 7.62N.

WHAT! Civilian range and you didnt have to pick up spent brass! "You shoot twenty and you will give me 20 empty." Very nice and easy when it was dark and snow on the ground... (Sako and Lapua will reload spent brass to blank rounds and guess what- when not on FDF area you have to pick those up too...)

[jester]

I am so glad we never had yo account for our "spent" blanks Because most were never spent, but, they did get "used" or so the report went.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by jester

I am so glad we never had yo account for our "spent" blanks Because most were never spent, but, they did get "used" or so the report went.

Not to mention those magazines that went missing every so often...

[jester]

I was always the devoted team and squad leader, giving up my BFA to the new boots who didn't have one so they could get the important training they needed. I was so selfless that way

[neuk]

When the pistol ban hit the Uk a few years ago, the poilce went round and took all the guns people had regardless of age etc. anything 9mm or modern did not all get destroyed.

1. the police took some into storage.

2. the police stole some and then sold them on. local officer got nicked for this around 12 months ago selling guns taken almost 6-8 years ago, and then destroyed! so what the govenment tells us and what the govenment does are two very different things.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by jester

I was always the devoted team and squad leader, giving up my BFA to the new boots who didn't have one so they could get the important training they needed. I was so selfless that way

You have no idea where my mind went at first when I saw "BFA"...

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by jester

I am so glad we never had yo account for our "spent" blanks Because most were never spent, but, they did get "used" or so the report went.

When I was in, the attitude among the supply pogues was, "Guess you didn't need all those blanks, pyro, chemlights, etc. We'll allot you less next year." So definitely, everything "got used."

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

When I was in, the attitude among the supply pogues was, "Guess you didn't need all those blanks, pyro, chemlights, etc. We'll allot you less next year." So definitely, everything "got used."

This attitude is amazingly widespread and amazingly wasteful. I've gone out on many a training exercise in which the unused pyro, blanks, and whatnot are simply consumed at the end of the exercise so that next cycle's ration won't shrink. As a young lieutenant, I got a serious chewing of my fourth point of contact for bringing a half-dozen belts of 7.62 blanks back to the armory. I thought I was conserving resources. What I was really doing was telling the battalion S3 that my company didn't need so much; my CO was hopping mad about it.

Changing this type of thinking requires senior leadership to change their minds about how supply is run. In Twilight: 2000, every round is going to be counted when it comes to training. Simply burning up ammunition to keep the issue of ammunition the same won't be an option. I suppose, then, all it takes is a limited nuclear war for the resources to take on value.

Webstral

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Trooper

WHAT! Civilian range and you didnt have to pick up spent brass! "You shoot twenty and you will give me 20 empty." Very nice and easy when it was dark and snow on the ground... (Sako and Lapua will reload spent brass to blank rounds and guess what- when not on FDF area you have to pick those up too...)

I think we had to return about 90%, but as long as it looked right on casual inspection (ie couldn't make the weight up with brass bednobs)...
So, we usually spent 15 minutes clearing the mound followed by a swift echange of sandbags with the gun club. Everyone got what they wanted and a few drinks were passed round.

[m47dragon]

The Anniston, Alabama Army Arsenal was mentioned, but it should be further added that they are but one depot storing thousands of arms and ammunition (we're talking WWI/WWII/Korea/Vietnam surplus arms.) This is also the home of the Civilian Marksmanship Program's South Store where they sell thousands of rifles (M1 Garands, M1 Carbines, 1903 and 1903A3 Springfields and Model of 1917 Enfields) every year to the civilian market...along with millions of rounds of surplus and new ammunition (they also sell .22 target rifles, and used to sell custom match built Ar-15's.) This is just the program's south store...their north store is located at Camp Perry, Ohio (and they've tons of guns there...picked up a beautiful M1 Carbine from them last summer) These are what they have in stock...they've been selling rifles for decades so there are tons of rifles already in civilian hands that are chambered for common military calibers.

As far as constructing new ARs...lower receivers can be milled from an aluminum billet if you have modicum skill level. It was mentioned making cast moldings and screwing them together like a clamshell...this has been done by a private company already (and the BATFE shut them down promptly, but that is another story.) If you scan the internet, you will find that lower receivers have been milled from high density plastics, literally made out of plastic cutting boards. The real difficulty will be the upper receiver and barrels, although there are millions in surplus storage that could theoretically be pulled into service. The real problem will probably be transporting pieces from their storage depots to industrial areas. Small parts can be fabricated fairly effectively from other materials.

I like the idea of stamped metal parts...AK receivers can be stamped and bent very easily...weld, screw or rivet. Again, barrels will be the hardest part.

Any cartridge can be loaded with blackpowder versus smokeless...you just have to know the reloading differences and expect your semi-auto and automatics to very quickly become single shot repeaters. Black powder is incredibly caustic and care and maintenance will increase.

Great topic!

[jester]

Thus, I suggested the two substituites:

MINI 14 which can be milled from a smaller piece of metal and poof you have your reciever, tap and thread it for a barrel and screw in the barrel, the trigger assembly is the next major component and then a stock and a magazine and it is ready to go.

AR-18; A stamped alternative to the M16 series. Stamped like the AK, with internal workings akin to the M240, simple, cheap and reliable but close to a M16 none the less.

As for stocks, those are easy, you can make a traditional stock if you had the polymer, a tube style colapsible stock either plastic or metal. Or a fixed tube stock again made from tube stock, and the forgrip, a simple checkered or similiar pattern metal tube and you are good to go. As it said with the M16EZ you could also make woodenstocks for them which I have seen in real life which look pretty good.