Alternate version of New America...

[waiting4something]

Originally Posted by sglancy12

Yeah well, that could also describe the RUF, the Sendero Luminoso, the Taliban, Al Queda, and the Khmer Rouge... none of which I would describe as "cool." Interesting maybe. Even fascinating... but not cool.



The "they" to which you refer are the authors of the TW2K game setting. They don't have to try to portray the New Americans as some loony toon 3rd Reich wannabe cult because New America absolutely is a loony toon 3rd Reich wannabe cult.

You sound like you think the New Americans are getting a bad rap from the former staff writers at GDW.

Am I reading your comments correctly?

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

Well Robin Hood was pretty cool and he didn't go with the government grade and was self promoting too.

As far as "they" I I'm refering to the authors of TW2K. They are the ones that made the NA what they are, are they not? I mean they could have made them dudes that just where anti government, didn't like typical U.S. politics, or waiting for hard times ahead. No they made them to be the typical Hollywood racist redneck militia. And why not build them like the Nazi's they are the popular guys to hate on. Years of movies and TV have taught us well on that. Hell even the film Star Wars had bad guys based on Nazi's.
You Mention Khmer Rouge which I give you props for, because most people don't even know or remember them and they happened after the nazi's. Bad guys and the groups they run can be different from the nazi's yet this always goes unnoticed, because we are so brainwashed on what we are fed by the media. Hell some other evil could lurk up on us, because we are so focused on nazi's. Look at Africa do we know what happens there- no, we don't care. Why because they aren't popular.
So yeah the writers did make the NA bad guys. A group like that couldn't get that big, because everyone is looking for that type of evil. They could of made them less flamboyant bad guys or not bad guys at all, just another group that doesn't see eye to eye with the other two.

[John Farson]

I've always thought of NA as coming to the fore after the nuclear exchange, offering law and order, food, security and protection against raiders, rebuilding etc. etc. In the sorry situation the U.S. is in, I'd think that a lot of people would be quite open to all that.

Naturally, NA would use propaganda to mask their more odious true nature from the general public. I doubt they'd immediately go "RAR! We are teh Aryans!!! We gonna kill all the filthy niggers, jooze, fags, mormons and anyone else we don't like!" They'd be more clever than that, which would make them all the more dangerous. This reminds me of a joke I once read in MAD magazine about the "patriot" who ends up hating about 90% of Americans.

[Legbreaker]

The Khmer Rouge of course were Communists who took it to the absolute extreme. Fortunately their reign over their country was relatively short, but did they know how to kill people!
Of course the majority of the people they killed were their own, which many people pointed the finger at just to save their own skins (and then most still died).

A truely horrific group which unfortunately still exists in the more remote regions...

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

The Khmer Rouge of course were Communists who took it to the absolute extreme. Fortunately their reign over their country was relatively short, but did they know how to kill people!
Of course the majority of the people they killed were their own, which many people pointed the finger at just to save their own skins (and then most still died).

A truely horrific group which unfortunately still exists in the more remote regions...

I always saw the ndp as something along those lines ( NDP -NEW DAWN PARTY in our campaign) .Not communist and totally different setting , but you know-totalitarian ,fear fuelled obidience and uniformity.

Shelter-Bread-Leadership

the creed of the NDP who woved to give all a berth and space in a bunker ,calories enough to feed all and of course a 23 hour and 45 min program for how the populace would spend their days in their bunkers.

Yeah -I know -that 15 min gap proves it . They are softies.

They do have a death mine though , for dissidents.They inherited it and renamed it from The General Pain Asbestos CO. Ltd when the glorious reign of teh General collapsed during the first MilGov invasion /liberation attempt in 2014.( Yeah.Some call it this ,some that ,depending on loyalties..)

Much the same clientele .

[Legbreaker]

Something that was half joked about when I was in the army was that we were not allowed to be worked more than 23 hours and 45 minutes in a day as anything more could be described as slavery.

[sglancy12]

Originally Posted by waiting4something

Well Robin Hood was pretty cool and he didn't go with the government grade and was self promoting too.

Don't think Robin of Loxley would much appreciate being grouped with Pol Pot and Carl Hughes.

Originally Posted by waiting4something

And why not build them (the New Americans) like the Nazi's they are the popular guys to hate on. Years of movies and TV have taught us well on that. Hell even the film Star Wars had bad guys based on Nazi's.

Frankly the Soviets get to fill those shoes in TW2K. Got yer spiffy uniforms. Got yer brutal secret police. Got yer massive army. Even got Gulags to stand in for concentration camps.

Originally Posted by waiting4something

You Mention Khmer Rouge which I give you props for, because most people don't even know or remember them and they happened after the nazi's. Bad guys and the groups they run can be different from the nazi's yet this always goes unnoticed, because we are so brainwashed on what we are fed by the media. Hell some other evil could lurk up on us, because we are so focused on nazi's.

You are all over the place dude. First you ask "Why weren't New America more like the Nazis?" then you complain that Nazis have been overused?

Originally Posted by waiting4something

Look at Africa do we know what happens there- no, we don't care. Why because they aren't popular.

Hey, I mentioned the RUF didn't I? Maybe I should have thrown in the Lord's Resistance Army from Uganda. Those guys are 8 cylinder, fuel-injected psychos.

Originally Posted by waiting4something

So yeah the writers did make the NA bad guys. A group like that couldn't get that big, because everyone is looking for that type of evil. They could of made them less flamboyant bad guys or not bad guys at all, just another group that doesn't see eye to eye with the other two.

Originally Posted by waiting4something

I mean they could have made them dudes that just where anti government, didn't like typical U.S. politics, or waiting for hard times ahead. No they made them to be the typical Hollywood racist redneck militia.

Okay, I still don't get your point. Are you turned off because the New Americans were made out to represent the worst aspects of the survivalist movement? Do you see the New Americans as a deliberate slight against anyone white, christian, rural, politically conservative and dedicated to self-sufficiency?

I don't think the authors intended the New Americans to represent the entire survivalist movement. There is plenty of room in the canon for survivalist philosophies that do not include the fascism and racism of New America. I will admit that as written in TW2K the survivalist movement was a prime recruiting ground for New America, just like in real life many of the white supremacists and racial separatist movements attempted to recruit from the survivalist and the later militia movements.

The New Americans were certainly influenced by David Brin's Holonists from "The Postman." In that book survivalists are depicted as the reason the government fails to recover after the limited nuclear exchange and why the country breaks down into anarchy and chaos. But I don't think that the authors at GDW had an agenda concerning the depiction of survivalist.


A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[kato13]

Originally Posted by sglancy12

I don't think the authors intended the New Americans to represent the entire survivalist movement.

I have to say that I cut GDW a little slack on the attaching of Facist/Nazi characteristics to New America as when they did it (mid to late 80s), it was not nearly the cliche that it is now. It was actually kinda novel back then (at least to me) and given the tone of some survivalist groups, potentially accurate..

In today's world you see the fact that the movie version of "Sum of All fears" change the villains from Palestinian terrorists to, you guessed it, neo Nazis. Even thought the origin or fissile materials they used was a lost Israeli bomb found in Syria. This just smacks of lazy writing or a desire not to be controversial. Nazis are just such an easy target.

[waiting4something]

Originally Posted by sglancy12

Don't think Robin of Loxley would much appreciate being grouped with Pol Pot and Carl Hughes



Frankly the Soviets get to fill those shoes in TW2K. Got yer spiffy uniforms. Got yer brutal secret police. Got yer massive army. Even got Gulags to stand in for concentration camps..

Ahhh no. The Soviets were not really in the U.S. except for Division Cuba and the ones in Alaska. The Soviets themselves really weren't made out to be bad guys in this. There were marauder groups that were mainly Soviet that were, but not the Soviets themselves. And spiffy uniforms, come on those things are cheap and ugly.

Originally Posted by sglancy12

You are all over the place dude. First you ask "Why weren't New America more like the Nazis?" then you complain that Nazis have been overused?

When did I ever state "why weren't the New Americans more like Nazis"? In fact my complaining was that they where made out to be like or baised off of Nazis.

Originally Posted by sglancy12

Okay, I still don't get your point. Are you turned off because the New Americans were made out to represent the worst aspects of the survivalist movement? Do you see the New Americans as a deliberate slight against anyone white, christian, rural, politically conservative and dedicated to self-sufficiency?

I don't see how you don't get my point? It seems you just really dig the whole ultimate bad guy evil army thing. Or you you like the idea of white, christian, rural, politically conservative, and not government backed people being the ultimate bad guys?

I don't think the authors intended the New Americans to represent the entire survivalist movement. There is plenty of room in the canon for survivalist philosophies that do not include the fascism and racism of New America. I will admit that as written in TW2K the survivalist movement was a prime recruiting ground for New America, just like in real life many of the white supremacists and racial separatist movements attempted to recruit from the survivalist and the later militia movements..[/quote]

Not so sure if this is true. But, the media sure likes to print headlines like that.
And I'm sure headlines like that in the 1970-1980's are what made the author go that route.

Originally Posted by sglancy12

The New Americans were certainly influenced by David Brin's Holonists from "The Postman." In that book survivalists are depicted as the reason the government fails to recover after the limited nuclear exchange and why the country breaks down into anarchy and chaos. But I don't think that the authors at GDW had an agenda concerning the depiction of survivalist..

Never read The Postman or saw that Kevin Costner movie either. I think the author picked survivalist, because the average American more then likely sees them as crazies.

[sglancy12]

Originally Posted by waiting4something

When did I ever state "why weren't the New Americans more like Nazis"? In fact my complaining was that they where made out to be like or baised off of Nazis.

Here's where I got confused. You wrote:

Originally Posted by waiting4something

I mean they (the GDW authors) could have made them (the New Americans) dudes that just where anti government, didn't like typical U.S. politics, or waiting for hard times ahead. No they made them to be the typical Hollywood racist redneck militia. And why not build them like the Nazi's they are the popular guys to hate on. Years of movies and TV have taught us well on that. Hell even the film Star Wars had bad guys based on Nazi's.

Bad guys and the groups they run can be different from the nazi's yet this always goes unnoticed, because we are so brainwashed on what we are fed by the media. Hell some other evil could lurk up on us, because we are so focused on nazi's.

I read that sentence I highlighted in bold and I thought that what you were saying "Why not make the New Americans like nazis instead of racist redneck militia?" So it looked to me like you were offering the Nazis as an alternative to racist redneck militia, then turning around and saying how tired and overused Nazis are. Clearly I was wrong.

I guess the problem here is I that don't equate racist redneck militias with the Nazis... or skin heads, or the Klan, or even the Aryan Nations guys. Those guys are not Nazis because they have an inherent and highly American distrust of big institutions and government. They want America to be like they imagine it was in the Mid-19th century: Run by white Christian men, where anyone else has no rights we are bound to respect, and the government can't get in the way of how you dispose of your property. Rugged frontier individualism with a dose of America for Americans and no sense of irony about the fact that except for the redskins we're all illegal immigrants.

Nazis, that is real historical Nazis and not these cheap wanna-be knock offs, don't want rugged individualism. They want to submerge their identity into a greater whole (hence all the spiffy uniforms). They want to be part of the well-oiled machine (like the Weremacht or the Waffen SS). A juggernaut of history reshaping the world (Deutchland Uber Alles). I'm not saying they are robots, but the Nazis (and fascists) of the 1930s and 1940s do not distrust the state. They love the state. They see the state as the only mechanism to solve society's problems.

As for more on who fills the shoes of the Nazis in TW2K...

Originally Posted by waiting4something

Ahhh no. The Soviets were not really in the U.S. except for Division Cuba and the ones in Alaska. The Soviets themselves really weren't made out to be bad guys in this. There were marauder groups that were mainly Soviet that were, but not the Soviets themselves. And spiffy uniforms, come on those things are cheap and ugly.

I meant globally they fit the Nazi's shoes. They start the war, they go nuclear first, they dump their prisoners into lethal gulags, their secret police execute anyone even suggesting that maybe this war isn't a good idea or that perhaps this or that order might not be the best idea. They are the bad guys.

Sure, you get Red Army commanders with some humanity and sense of proportion. But the KGB is an evil organization at it's core. It's going to make sure that the Red Army dies in place fighting for war-aims that are clearly impossible to achieve while the KGB and Party officials sit it out in the backfield. They are the Gestapo.

As for their uniforms not being spiffy... Okay maybe they don't dress as sharp as the SS with those black uniforms with the silver piping... but come on! The Nazis were the best dressed evil bastards in history. You can't top them for style. A direct comparison isn't fair. I'm just saying that their uniforms would be spiffier than the Army surplus that the New Americans would be wearing.

Originally Posted by waiting4something

It seems you just really dig the whole ultimate bad guy evil army thing.

I have my ultimate bad guy evil army thing... it's called the Soviet Union. Sure there aren't enough of them in the CONUS, and if anything I almost feel sorry for the Division Cuba because they are so freakin' screwed. But yes, I dig having the Sovs on US soil so much I'm willing to overlook the logistical impossibility of getting so many of them into Alaska. Go Wolverines!

Originally Posted by waiting4something

Or you you like the idea of white, christian, rural, politically conservative, and not government backed people being the ultimate bad guys?

The history of this country demonstrates that white, christian, rural, politically conservative and self-sufficient has too often translated into "I'll kill you if you try to change things." Sure, we've had rinky-dink leftist terrorist groups like the SLA, the Weathermen, the ALF and the ELF, but they are usually little better than a bad joke. This isn't Europe with its Red Army Faction, or the Red Brigades. Our leftists get university jobs and spend their time whining about America's racism, sexism and imperialism and generally engaging in self flagellation over all of America's sins.

Political violence in America comes more often from the far right, not the far left. It's always been more wide-spread, more accepted, and more organized on the far-right than on the far left.

But that doesn't mean I get off portraying white, christian, rural, politically conservative and self-sufficient folks as the ultimate bad guys in a role-playing game so I can pretend that my political biases represent reality. In fact, I believe that white, christian, rural, politically conservative and self-sufficient is the freakin' back bone of this country. They do all the heavy lifting around here. They're they guys that keep this country fed and most often fill the ranks of the military. In the TW2K world they are indispensable for rebuilding the country. Unfortunately they are also susceptible to New America's message, particularly if the message is wrapped in some half-truths and outright lies to convince folks that they are not really going to end up in a fascist state divided into racial castes.


A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[waiting4something]

Well sglancy12, now that I see your views better and tend to agree with what you stated, I guess I can't argue with you anymore. I like seeing the Soviets as the bad guys too! But that's because commies are.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by waiting4something

Well sglancy12, now that I see your views better and tend to agree with what you stated, I guess I can't argue with you anymore.

This thread teetered on the edge of going too political, but I am glad that we can come to a civil conclusion even on a very hot button topic. This forum can usually pull itself back from potential bad blood better than most forums. That is why I generally stay hands off, as we can usually talk it out. As is almost always the case, I am very proud of this forum and its members.

Kudos Gentlemen

[sglancy12]

Originally Posted by waiting4something

I like seeing the Soviets as the bad guys too! But that's because commies are.

In my homebrew timeline I prefer that the Red Chinese and Soviets patch up their ideological bickering because the hard liners in both governments realize that the real enemy is the their own domestic populace. They have to keep the citizens sufficiently cowed and sufficiently fed otherwise the pro-democracy movements will continue to grow, achieving what it did in real life: toppled regimes in Eastern Europe and the USSR as humpty dumpty.

I was never comfortable with the US helping Red China in the TW2K timelines. Not that I don't think we would have "played the China card," but supporting Red China in a Sino-Soviet war is too much like being in bed with Stalin during WWII. Gives me the creeps. I'd be happier just letting them hash it out amongst themselves.

So just to be clear, I think the US would have supported China during a Sino-Soviet war as envisioned by GDW, but I wouldn't have liked it.

And for reasons I've stated elsewhere, I think a prolonged conventional Twilight War is more likely if the PRC and the USSR are fighting against the West.

Somehow we have to get back on topic to New America.

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[kalos72]

The more I ponder this topic, and the others regarding New America, I find myself asking this question.

Would a group of people, say a refugee camp or larger population that simply cant feed everyone start to "categorize" or "weigh" its citizens similar to the way NA does, only based on skills and usefulness rather then race and political beliefs?

I think its ENTIRELY possible to see that sort of "what have you done for me lately" attitude in larger groups under stress on just feeding themselves. If you live in a small town and are decently safe and fed, as per T2K standards go anyways, I doubt you would resort to this.

Perhaps NA cells, as they recruit more and more liberal minded people, the ones hiding it just to survive, the more those racial, elitist tendencies will get brushed aside. Especially for the cells that arent in direct contact with any sort of organized leadership any longer.

[Webstral]

In Thunder Empire, the populace of SAMAD all pretty much become government employees. They obtain a Government Service rank based on what they can do. If you have no skills but can work hard and have US citizenship, you become a GS1. Almost anybody can be used in the labor battalions. Those who can't work the fields or in construction still might have a place in the machine shops, which are always hungry for labor.

As has been said before, what sets New America aside is not their interest in triage. New America's motives are far different than, say, MilGov's or CivGov's. New America is looking to create an Aryan United States. With the possible exception of the Florida enclave, New American cells would value a white man with no skills more highly than a black or Hispanic doctor, agricultural specialist, chemist, or engineer. As a rule, MilGov or CivGov will be nearly color blind when it comes to valuable skills. (Racism hides in unexpected places.)

Webstral

[sglancy12]

Originally Posted by kalos72

The more I ponder this topic, and the others regarding New America, I find myself asking this question.

Would a group of people, say a refugee camp or larger population that simply cant feed everyone start to "categorize" or "weigh" its citizens similar to the way NA does, only based on skills and usefulness rather then race and political beliefs?

Like I said earlier: Life Boat Politics. Any group under sufficiently dire stress could end up making these kinds of decisions. What starts as an underfed refugee camps could end up turning into something like a low-tech version of the City from Logan's Run. Only instead of killing or driving off the old, the refugee camp drives out anyone who isn't contributing to the survival of the majority.

But there is something to consider. TW2K is usually set around two and a half years after the nuclear exchange. There have been two harsh winters and a kind of "nuclear autumn." Refugee camps have suffered massive casualties by this time. The old, the sick, the handicapped, the mentally impaired, the mentally ill... all these kinds of people may have been either Darwined or even Malthused out of the equation by either the environment or even their fellow humans. By the time the players arrive on the scene, the weakest (pre-war) links have probably been removed. The social triage will no doubt continue as people get sick and injured, but by the summer of 2000, most camps are going to be down to their hardiest members. Any triage in the face of food supplies is going to be based on the individual's skills and ability to help the group. Not just what has someone done in the past, but what can they do in the future. Of course anyone with skills who refuses to use them might be subjected to some very brutal persuasion.

Originally Posted by kalos72

I think its ENTIRELY possible to see that sort of "what have you done for me lately" attitude in larger groups under stress on just feeding themselves. If you live in a small town and are decently safe and fed, as per T2K standards go anyways, I doubt you would resort to this.

I've seen post apocalyptic fiction where the communities supplies were manipulated to create false shortages in order to prompt the community to conduct a lottery to determine who had to be kicked out into the wilderness. Of course the lottery was manipulated too to ensure that political and personal enemies were forced into exile. So don't think that some ruthless people couldn't evoke "lifeboat politics" to get what they want.

Originally Posted by kalos72

Perhaps NA cells, as they recruit more and more liberal minded people, the ones hiding it just to survive, the more those racial, elitist tendencies will get brushed aside. Especially for the cells that arent in direct contact with any sort of organized leadership any longer.

There is a TW2K scenario published in GDW's Challenge magazine issue #44 called "Crossburn." In it there is New America Cell that has broken with HQ because they realize if they throw talented "racial inferiors" out of the lifeboat, then the whole community is going to fail. They abandoned the orthodox racial agenda in favor of raw survival.

The scenario also features a band of marauders/deserters from the 108th ID (all of whom are racial minorities) who deserted because the command of New America is falling under the ideological influence of New America.

The scenario was significant because it mixed it up to make the standard villains red herrings.

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[Abbott Shaull]

Funny thing about mention the Postman. The novel wasn't published until after Twilight 2000 was v1 was published.