The State of Other Armies in the Late Twilight War

[sglancy12]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

It could be that by staying in the military they are able to assist their families (or what's left of them) by sending money (if it's still got any value) or even food and clothing parcels. It might even be in the Army's best interest to provide such packages to soldiers, even supplying the transportation for them back to their families - a bit like a reverse care package.

A happy soldier unworried about their loved ones is after all much more likely to stick around than one who's family is starving, in danger, sick, etc.

If there was any way to make this happen, it would be in the interest of every national government remnant to make this happen. Soldiers who aren't worried about their families are less likely to desert.

After all, it wasn't until after Sherman's March to the Sea and the raising of South Carolina that the Army of Northern Virginia started to hemorrhage deserters. They went home not only to protect their families from the Union troops looting the Rebels' backfield, but also to help provide for their families during the famines that followed the economic devastation left in the Union Army's wake.

Of course, it is hard to imagine that MilGov or CivGov having the ability to keep the US Postal Service going... but you know... I gotta tell ya... I can't think of a more important service when it comes to keeping the nation from falling into regionalism.

Sure, you've got to have security, and the armed forces fill that role, but you've got to have communications beyond simply those of the government. Otherwise people are going to stop thinking about the country (or even the state) as a whole and end up thinking like Medieval peasants.

I can't imagine MilGov or CivGov having the resources for a postal service outside the military resupply convoys that move back and forth between unit cantonments. So I guess it's going to fall to private enterprise to fill this gap. Merchant convoys will most definitely be carrying what little mail is moving.

All references to David Brin's book (and the less successful movie) aside, a successful mail service would be an excellent bulwark against desertion.

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[Raellus]

We had a bit of a discussion here a while back about the mail and how important it would be in preventing desertion. I tried to address the subject a bit in my essay too but I'm not really confident that I have the answers so I didn't go into much detail.

I think the Mil/CivGov schism would make a national/international mail service more difficult to resurrect. But I risk another thread-jacking with this.

EDIT: Found it!

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=790

[Legbreaker]

The "care package" idea I think would only work where the communications lines were relatively short and confirmation could reach the soldiers that their families were being looked after.

In a T2K, European environment, I'd say anything beyond a few dozen miles could be classified as out of reliable communication.

[sglancy12]

Thanks Raellus for the link to the Mail Thread.

So... on the subject of other armies... I've made some mention of the Soviets and Germans and even Brits... The French and Belgian Armies would suffer fairly normal rates of desertion on the grounds that there really is a life of comparative ease for them to slink off to. Although it's beyond me why you would forgo a regular paycheck, a functional mail system and access to government facilities (which are likely in slightly better shape than civilian ones in France) only to have the French Security Services on your tail for desertion when you aren't exactly having to fight anything more challenging than Dutch guerrillas and German refugees.

I'm presuming that any other NATO army not facing enemy forces on their home soil is going to be hemorrhaging troops as everyone heads off to look after their families and form local defense militias. The Pact forces will have this same problem but will be none-too-gentle when it comes to discouraging deserters. However, I think that making brutal examples of deserters is only going to encourage mutinies among truly desperate troops.

(I'm repeating myself now)

Just thought of another belligerent that is worth looking at. Mexico (per the canon) would have a pretty serious desertion problem on account of several factors.

1) Deserters can actually get home on foot.

2) With the Civil War going on, there will be strong political reasons for Pre-war army units to disintegrate and reform as civil war "banderas" loyal to one civil war faction or another. Units will declare for one side or another or disintegrate into factional warfare within the unit. Those units that turn on themselves will cause their troops to either seek out banderas that match their political loyalties, turn marauder, or make their way home to look after their families.

3) The chaos of the Civil War will endanger the lives of loved one back home, so deserters will be under even more pressure to return home and look after loved ones.

4) Those Mexican soldiers fighting in America may have soured on the "glorious cause" of returning the lands stolen by the "Colossus of the North" to Mexico. Abandoned by headquarters in America, cut off from resupply, forced to live off the land, many of these Mexican soldiers may just say "enough" and go back to Mexico.

Any other thoughts on Mexico and it's armed forces vis-a-vis the issue of desertion? How would Mexican units handle troops rejoining units? How would they punish attempted desertions or attempted mutinies?

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[Marc]

Bon dia!

Here are some thoughts from one Western European point of view. Here, nationalities inside the legal state must be taken into account. It’s a day to day fact in the normal life of some European countries. Peaceful and non-peaceful tensions between nationalities and legal states exists in peace time. Tensions would grow up with the prewar scalation. And there’s a good chance that some kind of violent conflict would erupt with the war.

This could affect the number of desertions of the soldiers belonging to these nationalities. The use of the forced conscription option by the state can be the critical point. In most cases, nationalities would tend to disagree with the implication of the state in a foreign war. If conflict erupts between a nationality and the state, a good number of conscript and professional soldiers could choose to desert. This could be aggravated due to the reaction of the state against the nationality and the use of the army inside the state’s borders. As an example, in Catalunya, the forced conscription of Catalan soldiers to fight in the Spanish Army in Morocco started an uprising in 1909.

Another point is the capacity of administration to identify and act against deserters. After the nukes, few of them will have this capacity. In a lot of countries, people could blame the government for the destruction. “Look what have caused our implication in other’s war�. I’m pretty sure this will be the feeling in Spain or Italy, for example. People will not collaborate in reporting deserters. In some places, one self’s country will end in the borders of one self’s village. The deserters will be needed at home.

[sglancy12]

Originally Posted by Marc

Here are some thoughts from one Western European point of view. Here, nationalities inside the legal state must be taken into account. It’s a day to day fact in the normal life of some European countries. Peaceful and non-peaceful tensions between nationalities and legal states exists in peace time. Tensions would grow up with the prewar escalation. And there’s a good chance that some kind of violent conflict would erupt with the war.

This could affect the number of desertions of the soldiers belonging to these nationalities. The use of the forced conscription option by the state can be the critical point. In most cases, nationalities would tend to disagree with the implication of the state in a foreign war. If conflict erupts between a nationality and the state, a good number of conscript and professional soldiers could choose to desert. This could be aggravated due to the reaction of the state against the nationality and the use of the army inside the state’s borders. As an example, in Catalunya, the forced conscription of Catalan soldiers to fight in the Spanish Army in Morocco started an uprising in 1909.

I think Americans, and non-Europeans in general, tend to forget that even the so-called Nation-states of Western Europe are in fact patchworks of smaller nationalities sewn into a larger political entity. I'm not talking about the now-famous recently added Muslim immigrant minorities in Spain, France and Germany. I'm talking about ethnic minorities that have lived in Europe for centuries. Catalonia is an excellent example. Germany certainly is a patchwork of political states sewn together by Bismark... how much ethnic and national tension is there between Bavarians and Prussians? My friends in Germany were more likely to comment on divisions between "Osties" and the folks who'd grown up in the Federal German Republic.

For that matter, following the creation of the Dead Zone and the occupation of all areas west of the Rhine, where does the Dutch speaking population in Belgium come down on this issue? Are they Pro-France, Pro-Netherlands, or do they just support France's actions by maintaining their silence? Certainly I can see them hiding Flemish deserters from the Belgian Army. Would Flemish deserters join the Dutch resistance?

Originally Posted by Marc

Another point is the capacity of administration to identify and act against deserters. After the nukes, few of them will have this capacity. In a lot of countries, people could blame the government for the destruction. “Look what have caused our implication in other’s war�. I’m pretty sure this will be the feeling in Spain or Italy, for example. People will not collaborate in reporting deserters. In some places, one self’s country will end in the borders of one self’s village. The deserters will be needed at home.

Another excellent point. The tendency for folks to desert will depend on their likelihood of being turned in to the authorities once they get home. In the former Warsaw Pact countries there is a culture of informants that the Communists have nurtured for fifty years. So I imagine that your chances of getting turned in are pretty good... if the informant can find anyone to turn you in to. But I'm not so sure about Western Europe. Unless the newly returned deserter is causing trouble, where's the motivation to turn them in? The reward? Is there a bounty? Will the bounty be enough to offset the enemies the informant would make by turning in the deserter?


A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by sglancy12

...Another excellent point. The tendency for folks to desert will depend on their likelihood of being turned in to the authorities once they get home. In the former Warsaw Pact countries there is a culture of informants that the Communists have nurtured for fifty years. So I imagine that your chances of getting turned in are pretty good... if the informant can find anyone to turn you in to. But I'm not so sure about Western Europe. Unless the newly returned deserter is causing trouble, where's the motivation to turn them in? The reward? Is there a bounty? Will the bounty be enough to offset the enemies the informant would make by turning in the deserter?


A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

I'm reminded of the treatment of even petty criminals in the Soviet Union, everyone was encouraged to report on them and they were often forbidden to live or work in the major cities. Moscow had a number of communities made up of those exiled from the city or those forbidden to enter it for whatever reason. They lived in people's cellars, the tunnels under the city, abandoned buildings and so on all to avoid being seen and reported.

[B.T.]

This is a very interesting thread.

Some things to mention:
When in comes to the state of affairs in Germany, there are two things, that I would like to add to the discussion:
1. As Scott pointed out, there are some tensions between the "Ossies" (former GDR) and the "Wessies" (former FRG). Although it depends on the timeline of your choice, there will be a portion of former East German soldiers, who will eventually join their former allies (the Sovjets!).
But the majority of the East Germans were no friends of the Soviet Forces in Germany. Therefore the percentage of "Ossies" who really want communism back, would be very small.
I could imagine, that the deserters from East Germany would return to their hometowns and form some kind of militia.
The same would happen in the western part of the country: Deserters try to go back to their homes. Espacially in the western parts, that were occupied by French forces, this will lead to another problem (And to be honest: I'm glad that my PCs all stem from the US - I'm not quite shure, how some kind of partisan warfare in the Niederrhein-region would work!) - some kind of partisan warfare would certainly occure!
2. One thing should not be forgotten: Some of the regions with the highest density of population were nuked. Many of the soldiers from these areas have no place to return to!

But there is another point and I'm not shure, how to handle this. Many units will get smaller and smaller, like a snowball melting in the sun. When there is the time, where your company has a strength of something like 20 men, what will the CO do? Will he really try to find another unit and keep up the fighting? I can imagine, that a certain percentage of (former) soldiers will be amalgated by the civilian population. And if the guys are nice, we should not forget about the war widows in the area. If the mayor of a small Polish village can hold some skilled soldiers in his town, why not encouraging the young women or said widows, to try and have some kind of relationship with this nice guy from Germany, Sweden, Oklahoma, Britain or wherever?
I would think, that a not to small percentage of the soldiers, who know that their homes have been destroyed, could be bound to a new home in such a way.
The militias in disputed areas - in my Twilight World - have a percentage of soldiers, that do not stem from the region.

Well, just some thoughts, mostly from a German point of view. But I think, the same (or similar) processes could take place in various regions (Brits from Bristol, staying in Hannover or whatdoiknow ...).

I do not think, that deserters (if they behave!!!) would be reported in the Western states of Europe. But that just a guess.