Weapons Timelines for the Twilight War

[Raellus]

How could one play this out for a T2K'er who prefers the v1.0 timeline without a '91 Gulf War? (That would be me.)

I'm not anti-L85 or pro-SLR. I'm just wondering how the British Army would discover or cop to the defects in the L85 without a significant combat "test" like the first Gulf War.

I guess I like the idea of having to confront this issue in the midst of the Third World War.

[perardua]

I suppose some of the problems would have become evident in Northern Ireland, for example, the original problem with the magazine release catch became known (when troops patrolled with the weapon held against their body, it was not uncommon for the mag release to be knocked and the magazine to part company with the weapon at inconvenient times). IIRC this was fixed before the A2 upgrades by simply welding a guard around the catch. However, the sensitivity to dust wouldn't have been shown up so easily, but then, there's always the argument that it wouldn't be so important in a general European war as it was in the desert.

The question for the British armed forces, should they have to deal with the A1 during WW3, is whether it is better to A) keep struggling on with the damn thing as it is, B) change to a different weapon, with the corresponding need to buy a new weapon system, change the training regime, acquire all the necessary spare parts and ancilliaries, in the middle of a war, or C) try and upgrade the weapon.

Hmmmm. There has to be a particularly nasty scenario idea in there...

[TiggerCCW UK]

Originally Posted by perardua

I suppose some of the problems would have become evident in Northern Ireland, for example, the original problem with the magazine release catch became known (when troops patrolled with the weapon held against their body, it was not uncommon for the mag release to be knocked and the magazine to part company with the weapon at inconvenient times).

There were multiple instances where this happened over here. Some units took to tieing their magazines to their webbin with paracord, others duct taped magazines into their weapon, reckoning that they were more likely to lose a mag than get into a firefight where they needed more than 30 rounds. It always struck me as ironic that the police were better armed here than the military - initially Ruger Mini-14's and Sterlings, but more recently MP5's and HK33's.

[perardua]

If anything the problem's gone the other way now! During one of our battle camps in PDT before deploying to Afghanistan we spent a week at Otterburn ranges doing various live firing exercises. Thanks to the knee deep snow (a perfect simulation of the Afghan desert in summer, of course) and generally low temperatures, there were numerous instances of peoples hands being so cold they were unable to unload/reload rifles without using both hands and bracing the weapon against something, due to the rather robust magazine release catch. Good times. That and all the streams had frozen over then covered with snow, so they first thing you knew about them being there (rather than just handy looking cover) is when you fell in.

[pmulcahy11b]

I think problems such as the L85 in the Twilight War would have been taken care of quickly and efficiently as troop experiences mounted -- as long as the industrial base and means to turn the rifles in for refurbishment and get them back to the troops quickly existed. That would go for pretty much any equipment. That pretty much brings us back to TDM, when the industrial base and transportation network of the world pretty much fell apart in the space of a few hours. I think that until then (at least on the NATO side), problem equipment would be modified or replaced pretty quickly -- there's plenty of precedent for that in World War 2.

On the Soviet/Warsaw Pact side -- well, the precedent there for most troops is "Shut up and be happy with what you have, and remember that we can always provide you with 'incentive' to work with what you've got." Units like Spetsnaz, Airborne, and Air Assault units may have had their input better listened to, but most of their troops would have to make do with whatever shortcomings their equipment has. Occasionally, something innovative might turn up (like in World War 2 with the T-34), but for the most part, their troops are going to fight the war with what they had to start out with, and after TDM, it'll just get worse.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Raellus

How could one play this out for a T2K'er who prefers the v1.0 timeline without a '91 Gulf War? (That would be me.)

I don't have a v1 timeline handy in front of me right now but in the canon v1 timeline were British troops involved in any great numbers in a major conflict during the late 1980s/ early to mid 1990s? If so perhaps that is where British forces were able to do their 'significant combat "test"'.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Targan

I don't have a v1 timeline handy in front of me right now but in the canon v1 timeline were British troops involved in any great numbers in a major conflict during the late 1980s/ early to mid 1990s? If so perhaps that is where British forces were able to do their 'significant combat "test"'.

Like you I don't have a v1 timeline in front of me but I can't recall any such conflict being listed in either the initial box set or the Survivor's Guide to the United Kingdom.

[perardua]

Having just dug out my T2K CD and checked the Survivor's Guide to the UK, the earliest mention of any military operations that could provide a testing ground for the L85 was the 1995 deployment of troops to Oman to fight guerillas there, along with the sale of equipment to the Sultan's military. That might at least provide a recognition of a need for an upgrade programme on the very doorstep of the war.

[HorseSoldier]

The version 1.0 timeline doesn't really provide any details about pre-1995 military operations, but does make references to various brushfire wars and such. Hypothetically the UK could have been involved in one. Or they might have seen the light without a war to suggest that something along the lines of the L85A2 was needed (though I suspect HK wouldn't get the nod, as I don't think the UK would let their domestic small arms industry flush completely down the toilet with the cold war still kicking).

Most likely, the L85 sucks and the SLRs get pulled in volume. If the problem is bad enough they might even place emergency orders for M16s from the US or Canada.

No L85A2 upgrade for HK probably means no G36 in the mix. If the G11 program fizzles, Germany may have gone for the HK33 and 53 for a NATO standard caliber -- either way, West German reservists are probably still carrying G3s, while the Osties will be going into action with their MPiK-74s for the active duty guys and probably AKMs for their reserves. (German logistics during the war must have been giving staff officers strokes even before the nukes.)

The US love affair with the M4 probably never really gets going, and the various marks of the M16 predominate for most people outside of SOF units. No post-Cold War demobilization and US support for the Baltic republics, however, does probably mean that last ditch US reservists and militia get issued M14s alongside the M16EZ kits.

The Czechoslovaks most likely field the LADA or some other sort of 5.45mm rifle to keep commonality with the mainstream Warsaw Pact (personally I'd like to see a 5.45mm version of the vz.58, but that doesn't look like the way they were going).

For everybody, the war between China and the USSR makes the world seem a more dangerous place, and programs to upgrade equipment might get pushed harder. The HK416 seems unlikely, but some of the smaller European nations currently using Diemaco/Colt Canada rifles as replacements for G3s could happen. With rush procurement programs, there'd likely be a lot of the old kit left over even before people start scraping the bottom of the barrel later in the war.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

No L85A2 upgrade for HK probably means no G36 in the mix. If the G11 program fizzles, Germany may have gone for the HK33 and 53 for a NATO standard caliber -- either way, West German reservists are probably still carrying G3s, while the Osties will be going into action with their MPiK-74s for the active duty guys and probably AKMs for their reserves. (German logistics during the war must have been giving staff officers strokes even before the nukes.)

The Czechoslovaks most likely field the LADA or some other sort of 5.45mm rifle to keep commonality with the mainstream Warsaw Pact (personally I'd like to see a 5.45mm version of the vz.58, but that doesn't look like the way they were going).

Thanks. I hadn't come across references to he MPiK-74 or the LADA before. Nice. With Romania, Poland, and Bulgaria switching to AK-74 clones, and with around five to seven years of full scale production of these weapons (prior to the TDM in late '97), 5.45mm ammo would be more common, and 7.62mm S less so, on the front lines in Europe.

Based on what I've read, I think Germany would more likely ramp up production of the 5.56mm G41 instead of the G33. There's not much of a difference, as far as I can tell.

[HorseSoldier]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Thanks. I hadn't come across references to he MPiK-74 or the LADA before. Nice. With Romania, Poland, and Bulgaria switching to AK-74 clones, and with around five to seven years of full scale production of these weapons (prior to the TDM in late '97), 5.45mm ammo would be more common, and 7.62mm S less so, on the front lines in Europe.

The East Germans did a pretty nice AK, if the 74s I got to do fam fire and training with are any indication. (The Bulgarian 5.45 ammo was less nice -- after several mags of one lot a bunch of us started feeling like exposed skin was burning -- I've probably got cancer care of Eastern European quality control or something . . .)



I've never seen a LADA outside of pictures, but the SGM at my last unit went through the SGM Academy with a bunch of senior NCOs from former Warsaw Pact nations and the word of mouth among them seemed to be the it set a new standard for AK type weapons. Judging from the pictures, it does seem to fix some of the ergonomics on the AK.

I agree that 5.45x39 would be the primary round used by most of the Warsaw Pact forces when the war in Europe kicks off. By the time the Cat C reserves get mobilized, vintage AKs might be as common. I don't think the AKMR idea GDW had would really pan out -- AKM to AK-74 conversion would require surgery to the receiver, a new barrel, new gas tube, new bolt, etc. By the time you've done all that, it can't be much cheaper than just building a new AK-74.

Based on what I've read, I think Germany would more likely ramp up production of the 5.56mm G41 instead of the G33. There's not much of a difference, as far as I can tell.

I was thinking the G41 was just the German military G# for the HK33, but Wikipedia has corrected my errors. I'd agree that the G41 would be the go to gun, though the idea of the Germans fielding a weapon using a STANAG 5.56mm magazine seems so exotic and weird it will take me a couple days to wrap my head around it .

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

...If the G11 program fizzles, Germany may have gone for the HK33 and 53 for a NATO standard caliber -- either way, West German reservists are probably still carrying G3s...

The G41 would likely have been chosen before the HK33 as it was inline with the G11 for re-equipping rear echelon units that wouldn't need the G11. So you'd probably see front line troops with the G11 (and then whatever they got to replace it when ammo became scarce), rear area troops with the G41, Reservists with the G3 and Uzi then whatever police and ad hoc units they could make equipping with the leftovers including MP5s, the HK33 and HK53


Now that I read the rest of Raellus' post, from what I recall the G41 had a bolt hold-open device, dust cover on the ejection port and a magazine well for STANAG mags but otherwise was an updated HK33 design