The EFCP (Evaluation of Female Combat Personnel) Program

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by helbent4

further, if it's true that criminal elements will tend to be kept from the front lines they will be concentrated in the rear areas.

Given that, I might agree with you, then. I assumed the "criminal elements" would be posted to the infantry, as that's where the replacements are needed most. And I'm certain more than one officer or NCO saw them as more expendable than anyone else.

OTOH, the idea that women might be "safer" in the front lines might lead to more of them volunteering for that duty, which seems all kinds of weird to me, but if they can stick together, as I mentioned before, that seems to make some kind of sense.

Branching back to the drafted gang-members, I am reminded of something I read about in WWII. I'll look it up, and post more in a bit.

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

Given that, I might agree with you, then. I assumed the "criminal elements" would be posted to the infantry, as that's where the replacements are needed most. And I'm certain more than one officer or NCO saw them as more expendable than anyone else.

OTOH, the idea that women might be "safer" in the front lines might lead to more of them volunteering for that duty, which seems all kinds of weird to me, but if they can stick together, as I mentioned before, that seems to make some kind of sense.

Branching back to the drafted gang-members, I am reminded of something I read about in WWII. I'll look it up, and post more in a bit.

Adm.,

Probably there should be a clearer caveat. There would likely be some serious incidents of sexual assault, intimidation and discrimination as order and disciple breaks down. This would involve individuals or even groups, with possible subsequent retaliation. Not enough to derail the program (too much need for warm bodies at the sharp end) but enough to show there would be friction. Especially where there are bad characters with not enough supervision.

Criminals in uniform have always been a problem, of course. With the numbers of Americans that are in or have been through the corrections system, it's not hard to see why exceptions seem natural. I don't think we'd see "penal battalions" because it's foreign to our culture but the idea has some allure. I'm not surprised there was a definite criminal element present in WWII, with conscription the bad would be swept in with the good.

FBI gang investigator Jennifer Simon said in an e-mail to Stars and Stripes this week [in Dec. 2006] that gang members have been documented on or near U.S. military bases in Germany, Italy, Japan, South Korea and Iraq.

"It's no secret that gang members are prevalent in the armed forces, including internationally," Simon said, adding that the FBI is preparing to release a report on gangs in the military.

There are no official statistics on gang membership in the military, but some experts have estimated that 1 percent to 2 percent of the U.S. military are gang members, Simon said. That compares with just 0.02 percent of the U.S. population believed to be gang members, she wrote.

"Gang membership in the U.S. armed forces is disproportional to the U.S. population," she added.

http://libertystreetusa.blogspot.com...n-problem.html

An article in the NYT in 2008 put the number of recruits allowed to enlist through moral waivers for a criminal record at 1 in 10, some sources put it higher at 1 in 8. Mind you, these are just the recruits and not the US military as a whole, so proportionally the numbers are going to be lower overall. But still high, and likely to get higher as standards are lowered and conscription becomes universal.

Tony

[pmulcahy11b]

As far as drafting/recruiting gang members:

For sure, there are some where the military is about training with weapons and tactics and bringing them back to their homies, while developing some contacts for their criminal activities such as drugs worldwide.

But there are some for whom the military represents the way out of poverty and the gangs that they are so desperately looking for. Yes, there may be some personality issues to deal with due to their upbringing, and they may have some ugly artwork on their bodies (tattoo removal for them should be fully funded and encouraged), but for some gang members, the military is a way out of the crappy lives they are living. There may not be as many problems with them as one might think.

Of course, with a draft, you'll get more bad apples.

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

But there are some for whom the military represents the way out of poverty and the gangs that they are so desperately looking for. Yes, there may be some personality issues to deal with due to their upbringing, and they may have some ugly artwork on their bodies (tattoo removal for them should be fully funded and encouraged), but for some gang members, the military is a way out of the crappy lives they are living. There may not be as many problems with them as one might think.

Paul,

That's a good point and something I considered. Not all gang members are completely in the "thug life" that they can't be set straight, some just didn't have a real choice in life. So of course, not all can be tarred with the same brush!

I think part of why "rehab via military" works is that gang members and other criminals are given opportunities they didn't have before, and (more importantly) are removed from their old lives and separated from old "bad" friends. Presumably, the gang-bangers who are currently allowed to enlist don't have serious drug or violent crime charges, aren't alcoholics or drug addtics, etc. Problems will happen when the "bad apples" grow in proportion, and they can remind and reinforce the thug life mentality. Plus, conscripts will have less invested in their future and the opportunities the military allows, thus less reason to change and buy into the program.

Tony

[natehale1971]

Actually i've got a good use for 'Penal Battalions'...

Helping with labor intensive jobs. be it disaster cleanup, fire-fighting, and helping with farming. These three things are JUST three that we have convict labor being used for here in the US today.

the use of "Penal Battalions" in the Army would be to assign them to Combat Engineers and other Rear Areas (under the watchful eyes of Military Police & the Corps of Engineers) for the construction of fortifications and cantonments, with helping in the recovery efforts and the like. The only downside to this overseas, would be the bad PR if some of these criminal element falls back to their old ways and starts raping and killing the people we're trying to help. But that can be said of regular troopers as well (as we saw with Belgium's peacekeepers to a UN Mission to Africa).

Which brings me to this point... What would such a program be called? we already have a name for women in combat, but wwhat of the penal battalions? what would politicians call something like that?

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by helbent4

I think part of why "rehab via military" works is that gang members and other criminals are given opportunities they didn't have before, and (more importantly) are removed from their old lives and separated from old "bad" friends. Presumably, the gang-bangers who are currently allowed to enlist don't have serious drug or violent crime charges, aren't alcoholics or drug addtics, etc. Problems will happen when the "bad apples" grow in proportion, and they can remind and reinforce the thug life mentality. Plus, conscripts will have less invested in their future and the opportunities the military allows, thus less reason to change and buy into the program.

If only this was always true. I've heard horror stories of gangs operating within the military and/or using it as a training course for all kinds of skills put to illegal use in the outside world.

During this decade, as demand for warm bodies grew, and the U.S. armed forces fell short of their recruiting goals, the military lowered its standards for new recruits and started accepting people with criminal records and/or that would have been rejected because of mental and physical health issues. In some cases, this has had disastrous results. I can see this happening in the Twilight World, too.

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by Raellus

...started accepting people with criminal records and/or that would have been rejected because of mental and physical health issues. I can see this happening in the Twilight World, too.

Enter Varis Babicevs

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Fusilier

Enter Varis Babicevs

Exactly my point!