Don't have my "Into the Howling Wilderness" yet...

[HorseSoldier]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

True, there is the depository to think about....
However, does Milgov have the strength to post more than a token presence there? Would they be confident in it's inbuilt security to risk leaving it unguarded for a year or two while they used their thinly spread troops elsewhere?
What, besides the depository, is in the area that would warrant a presence?

I'd anticipate a very well defended convoy from Fort Knox headed to the MilGov Colorado cantonment at some point along the way unless the gold had already been moved or otherwise accounted for.

Probably some interesting adventure ideas in there without replaying Armies of the Night in the midwest.

Ah, but they do have a pretty well-equipped machine shop for restoration and repair of the working models - that'd have some value to one side or the other (an AFV repair shop, that is).

It obviously has some value, but I'd anticipate anything the was portable was taken by 194th when they moved out, leaving only the stuff that was simply immobile. In any case, I don't think they have the ability to support even, say, a company team sized element of obsolete AFVs on active operations, even if they do have the ability to get a Panther or Tiger to crank up enough for a parade.

[Legbreaker]

I think the gold was discussed a month or two ago and it was estimated "4000+ tonnes of gold would require approximately 80 trucks assuming a 50+ tonne capacity."

A lot of fuel and protection required there, along with a lot of secure storage space at the other end. Of course getting it out requires getting through all the built in security which apparently requires the codes from eight different people (going from memory here). Could cut/blast the way in, but if you can't get all the gold in one go, then the rest will be open to scavengers/thieves/the security detail left behind.

In my mind it's probably safer left exactly where it is in exactly the same condition - ie locked up tight!

[HorseSoldier]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

I think the gold was discussed a month or two ago and it was estimated "4000+ tonnes of gold would require approximately 80 trucks assuming a 50+ tonne capacity."

A lot of fuel and protection required there, along with a lot of secure storage space at the other end. Of course getting it out requires getting through all the built in security which apparently requires the codes from eight different people (going from memory here). Could cut/blast the way in, but if you can't get all the gold in one go, then the rest will be open to scavengers/thieves/the security detail left behind.

In my mind it's probably safer left exactly where it is in exactly the same condition - ie locked up tight!

Without some sort of security force to intervene, any safe or vault, even a complex like the depository at Ft. Knox, just represents a time/distance equation for defeating its security measures. Admittedly, it would be a pretty major undertaking, but with CivGov, MilGov, and New America (plus minor/regional powers) in the game, I don't know that anyone would feel comfortable leaving anything of strategic value unattended in circa 2000 America.

So I'd think that MilGov would make an effort to get the gold out if/when they decided to pull the plug on Ft Knox. Rather than trucking it, they could haul it on the Ohio River, since the 194th seems to mostly have been oriented on river lines when it moved out of the Knox area. To get it all the way to Colorado Springs could be a trick using river lines, but it might be part of the cantonments in Cairo or Memphis, once the latter is cleared.

Or depending on the time frame that the decision was made to relocate the gold, it may have been feasible to move it by rail or even fly it elsewhere (the latter unlikely, I think, but someone could have made a forward looking call before things hit rock bottom). A couple C-5s could have hauled the supply to Colorado Springs in a reasonable number of sorties, if the airframes and fuel were available at that point in time.

[Legbreaker]

Quote: "The United States Bullion Depository holds 4,603 tons (4,176 metric tons) of gold bullion."

Now lets put that into perspective shall we?
The M-1A2 Abrams which was about the best US tank available at the time has a dry weight of 62.1 tonnes.

4,176 divided by 62.1 equals 67.25 tanks.

The C-5 can carry 122,470 kilograms, or 122.47 tonnes. This is just less than two tanks.

So, basically we need 34 flights by a C-5 Galaxy to shift all the gold, and that's gold only, doesn't include any passengers, security, additional equipment, etc. To do the job right we're looking at about 40 flights.

Ok, so still doable.... Lets look at fuel. Presuming you're travelling only halfway across the country and back, that's about one load of fuel - 193,600 litres.

40 flights of say 190,000 litres and you're looking at 7.6 million litres of aviation fuel. This is approximately 8 months of Ploesti's post war production rate - the 2000 Pact counteroffensive only had one month's worth to play with.

Given that the US government did not split until mid 1998 well after the November 1997 nuclear strikes, I have great difficulty in believing that much fuel would be available.

[HorseSoldier]

As stated, I don't think the idea of flying it out is feasible unless someone made an early call and acted on it. Relocation to a more secure setting than Kentucky might have preceded the emergence of CivGov -- post TDM you've pretty shortly got New Anerica formally hanging out their shingle on Appalachia, which could have prompted movement elsewhere (possibly not CO Springs at that point -- might be funny if MilGov's new hiding spot went over to CivGov subsequently).

Though there might be an interesting campaign in the 194th cantonments with a gold reserve thrown in -- some fuel to support aviation ops, lots of disposable income, but short on manpower. End result could see PCs jumping into areas under New America or CivGov control with attaché cases full of gold to try to run agents, buy the loyalty of local warlords etc.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

As stated, I don't think the idea of flying it out is feasible unless someone made an early call and acted on it. Relocation to a more secure setting than Kentucky might have preceded the emergence of CivGov -- post TDM you've pretty shortly got New Anerica formally hanging out their shingle on Appalachia, which could have prompted movement elsewhere (possibly not CO Springs at that point -- might be funny if MilGov's new hiding spot went over to CivGov subsequently).

Pre nuke there's almost no need whatsoever to shift the gold. Why take it out of the most secure facility on the face of the planet? Where exactly could you take it without months, even years of preparation?
Between the nukes in November 1997 and the collapse of the pre-war government mid 1998, there's no chance of anything more than a couple of bars being moved - the resources are all tied up coping with the aftermath of being nuked.
Once the government fell apart, there's simply no resources left, not to mention the chaos just keeps getting worse and worse.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Pre nuke there's almost no need whatsoever to shift the gold. Why take it out of the most secure facility on the face of the planet? Where exactly could you take it without months, even years of preparation?

It is possible that the US Government did have (and indeed may still do have) such a contingency plan which includes a pre prepared place where the gold could be taken and stored. Obviously it makes sense for the existence / location of such a facility to be classified as secret. And the facility could have been prepared years in advance.

The unknown factor is what event (or events) would need to happen for these contingency plans to be put into action - in this case when is it decided that it is safter to move the gold than leave it in situ? It's possible that one of the events that might cause plans to be implemented is the first release of tactical nuclear weapons in the summer of 1997.

So I do think it's possible that the gold at Fort Knox might have been moved sometime in the late summer / early autumn of 1997 (i.e. before the TDM) as a precaution...quite apart from anything else the US Government of the time wouldn't have had the luxury of knowing that the exchange would be limited in nature and that Knox wouldn't be a target, so I think one could argue that moving it to a secret location was a sensible option in terms of risk vs reward, the worst case scenario in not moving it obviously being the possibility of losing it all if Fort Knox is attacked by a large enough weapon.

(As an aside, for what it's worth, the British Government had a plan in place to transfer gold from the Bank of England to a prepared spot in North Wales)

http://www.flintshirechronicle.co.uk...1352-26573180/

[Targan]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

So I'd think that MilGov would make an effort to get the gold out if/when they decided to pull the plug on Ft Knox. Rather than trucking it, they could haul it on the Ohio River, since the 194th seems to mostly have been oriented on river lines when it moved out of the Knox area. To get it all the way to Colorado Springs could be a trick using river lines, but it might be part of the cantonments in Cairo or Memphis, once the latter is cleared.

Oooh, I like this. I'm imagining a cool scenario where one of the barges has sunk and the PCs are part of a recovery mission to recover the sunken gold from the river bed.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

I'd anticipate a very well defended convoy from Fort Knox headed to the MilGov Colorado cantonment at some point along the way unless the gold had already been moved or otherwise accounted for.

Probably some interesting adventure ideas in there without replaying Armies of the Night in the midwest.



It obviously has some value, but I'd anticipate anything the was portable was taken by 194th when they moved out, leaving only the stuff that was simply immobile. In any case, I don't think they have the ability to support even, say, a company team sized element of obsolete AFVs on active operations, even if they do have the ability to get a Panther or Tiger to crank up enough for a parade.

You know what?

Hm.

I'll get back to you guys. :>