USS Saratoga Fate

[Olefin]

Troubled Waters - John Hancock and three Forest Sherman DD

Frank Frey's Kenya module of which he has posted details here saying one CG and several destroyers and frigates

Tarawa as already mentioned

The RDF fleet including a Des Moines, an assault carrier and a missile

Assumptions from canon

1) At least some escorts for the 6000 men who transited the Med to get to the RDF in Dec of 2000- the Med is a very dangerous place as per Med Cruise - and there is no way else they got to Saudi from Europe on a collection of old ships in six weeks any other way than thru the Med (RDF module)

2) the guys in Korea didnt get there by swimming (general timeline, US Army Vehicle Guide)

3) Alaska - there were US troops in the Aleutians and who raided into Russia over the Bering Strait - again they didnt swim so that means a USN presence of some sort (same as 2)

4) Yugoslavia - most likely at least a minor USN presence there to support ops (same as 2)

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Olefin

4) Yugoslavia - most likely at least a minor USN presence there to support ops (same as 2)

Well, not strictly USN. USN assets under CivGov command maybe, and maybe they refer to themselves as USN but the bulk of the USN would view them as renegades. Remember, as far as US forces go the Yugoslavia AO is a CivGov show.

[Olefin]

Actually thats an interesting question as the USN doesnt take mutiny lightly. One thing that they might be would be USN ships that were in mothballs that were being put back into operation and then crewed by men loyal to Civ Gov - i.e. older DD's and possible even the Salem's sister cruiser or cruisers.

As such they may never have officially rejoined the official USN. Either that or MilGov is giving them naval support for the operation on the basis that even though those troops arent answering to them they would rather have them in Europe and not in the US where they could be used against them.

[Targan]

Olefin, thank you for instantly brightening my mood. That may be the first post of yours with which I fully agree on every point

[Olefin]

Always glad to be of service!

[Olefin]

Oh and since not everyone may be familiar with what Frank Frey posted on Kenya using his notes plus the notes of several people who communicated with him this is what the canon would have been for his module if he had finished it and published it - and again since he wrote many of the modules I think we can agree on this being "canon" since it was to be a GDW T2000 module

TF 212
• CG 50 USS Valley Forge, one SH-2F Seasprite, (flagship)
• DDG 996 USS Chandler, one SH-2F Seasprite
• DDG 46 USS Preble
• FF 1058 USS Meyerkord, one SH-2F Seasprite
• DD 950 USS Richard S. Edwards

TF 212.1 Support Group
• T-A0 146 Kawishiwi
• AE 22 Mauna Kea
TF 212.2 Patrol Group
• PC 11 Whirlwind
• PC 12 Thunderbolt
• MCM 7 Patriot
• WMEC 725 USCGC Jarvis
• USCGC WPB 1302 Manitou

Edwards is a Forrest Sherman class that in real life was expended in 1997 as a target - here she would have been part of the other Forrest Shermans that were put back in service as mentioned in Troubled Waters (Challenge Magazine article)

While the discussion changed the names of some of the ships for better candidates the composition as to numbers in general stayed the same.

And these ships would be operational ones, not stranded or out of fuel.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

EDIT: Fixed up the post to reflect that Saratoga is not in fact a CV-N. Can't believe I made that mistake. Anyway, fixes are bolded.

It's always nice to see one's name mentioned.

My thoughts on the Saratoga being where it is were based on the idea that she'd been working the southwest Atlantic, near Florida, and had been ordered to stop convoys of Division Cuba from reaching the coast of Texas. She got into a shooutout with Soviet and Cuban surface elements and while she broke the back of Soviet Naval operations in the region and virtually destroyed the last of the "official" Cuban navy, she absorbed at least a few cruise-missile hits and near misses and was badly crippled. Realizing a ship that could maybe someday be put back in action was preferable to a ship that was a natural reef her commander beached her in the shallows off of Port Ritchie, launching all remaining a/c as she went.

For my campaign purposes, the remaining crew did an able job of damage control, and there is a contingent of Marines and a skeleton crew of sailors on-board to maintain the ship. As the ships condensers are a source of fresh water and her sickbay facilities are (despite being mostly out of supplies) essentially a pre-war quality hospital, plus her considerable machine shop facilities the sparse civilian population near her beached location welcome her presence and trade food with the crew for use of her facilities. The locals also promulgate the story that the Saratoga is a ghost ship, abandoned due to unexploded ammunition and danger of internal collapse. The crew on board maintain this illusion by leaving the outer deck and hull in seemingly poor shape, however the below-deck spaces are maintained to the best possible standards.

For hostiles who refuse to turn back, the Marines on board have full control of the CIWS systems, .50 cal. machine guns, light arms and ad-hoc rocket launchers. How long they could hold out against a dedicated assault is anyone's guess though: the ship is too tempting a target for salvage for New America to just leave alone for too long.

[Olefin]

Have only been a forum member for a couple of weeks but have been avidly reading the old posts and there is something I feel that needs to be said about the fate of the USN carrier fleet.

A lot of people in the past have gotten their panties in a ringer about any discussions where its offered that USN nuke carriers may be surviving in the late 2000 to early 2001 time period. Most have the "well its not in canon" or "then the US would rule the waves and that would ruin the game for me" kind of flavor or bring out the tired "last fleet is shattered" argument.

However think about what it means for a carrier to be surviving versus being fully operational.

A nuclear carrier could be seaworthy and useable - but not be even close to operational.

You could have inoperable catapults, comm gear destroyed or non-functional, enough props or shafts damaged that she cant operate aircraft anymore, elevators non-functional, damage to the flight deck or hangars that is beyond their ability to repair, - the list goes on and on - but still be seaworthy and able to do something - but definitely not operational as a carier with an air wing

For that matter she doesnt even have to be damaged. Consider this list:

she doesnt have an aviation gas anymore and is in an area where they are out of it - say Europe or Korea - so while the ship works great she cant do anything with her aircraft.

She has av-gas but she is out of weapons and cant get more where she is-

she is at a dock, ready to go, but her reactor is out of fuel

Because of battle losses and spare part issues she doesnt have any operational aircraft left

Now does that mean they are useless - definitely not - but not as carriers anymore. A nuclear fueled ship like that would make a terrific troop or cargo transport (think of how much stuff you can put in her hangar decks) and if just carrying men she could bring several thousand men at once

A ship like that is hardly ruling the waves - especially considering most of them only have some light AA guns and would have to be retrofitted with better guns to defend themselves or they would be sunk by the first ship that has a gun bigger than 76mm they run into - but is still useful and still around for the day when the US gets avgas or can make the repairs

So does Belleau Wood being the last active carrier in the world mean that they are all sunk or damaged badly - not at all -

But if the Stennis is hauling passengers because its catapults are out of order and they cant get the parts then she is still around, still in commission - but definitely not operational as a carrier anymore