Grappling and melee

[Legbreaker]

And the average 9mm pistol does 1D6 also... Doesn't that make a punch somewhat overpowered?

[Targan]

Other than coup-de-gras type situations, can a single shot from a 9mm actually kill you in any of the original 3 versions of T2K?

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by Targan

Other than coup-de-gras type situations, can a single shot from a 9mm actually kill you in any of the original 3 versions of T2K?

Head shots will get close, and can kill weaker NPCs.

[Targan]

Hmm. I'm well familiar with 1st ed, it's the others I was hazy on. 9mm not being able to kill average PCs with a headshot = poxy system. NPCs being innately easier to kill than PCs = poxy system. IMHO.

[Bullet Magnet]

Originally Posted by Targan

Hmm. I'm well familiar with 1st ed, it's the others I was hazy on. 9mm not being able to kill average PCs with a headshot = poxy system. NPCs being innately easier to kill than PCs = poxy system. IMHO.

No game system is perfect, in my opinion.
Also, a 9mm could kill an average person in 1st edition, at least at closer ranges.
Head HP = CON score; average character would have a 10
9mmP damage = Base 1; plus 1d6 (at extreme range)
At close range, this figure is multiplies by four. So, at close range, a 9mm would inflict 4 + (4d6); the average damage for this ends up at 18 points. So, it is possible.

As for NPCs being easier to kill, yeah you got a point there. I always thought that seemed a bit too hollywood.

[Legbreaker]

V1 damage was pretty nasty, almost as nasty (and realistic) as the healing times. Get wounded beyond slight in V1 and you might as well roll up a new PC - the wait on healing could be months!

[Legbreaker]

In 2.x, anyone with a Constitution stat of 3 or less and it's possible. Head hit capacity is 2x Con. From memory, 1.0 isn't much different.

An Aimed shot which hits either the head or chest has a chance of an instant kill (roll a D10 - dead on equal or less than the number of damage dice of the bullet. ie 1-4 for a 7.62N, 1 for 9mmP).

2.2 also allows for double damage on an Outstanding Success on the hit roll.

While not personally familiar on an intimate level with 9mmP, I've heard anecdotes of VC barely staggering from a 9mmP burst at 50 metres. The follow up double tap 7.62N on the other hand....

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

In 2.x, anyone with a Constitution stat of 3 or less and it's possible. Head hit capacity is 2x Con. From memory, 1.0 isn't much different.

An Aimed shot which hits either the head or chest has a chance of an instant kill (roll a D10 - dead on equal or less than the number of damage dice of the bullet. ie 1-4 for a 7.62N, 1 for 9mmP).

2.2 also allows for double damage on an Outstanding Success on the hit roll.

Those rules are a bit more reasonable. Thanks for the explanation.

[Legbreaker]

It's worth noting that even a scratch can be potentially fatal - the injured party looses at least their next action, and depending on which version you're using may not be able to act for upwards of 30 seconds in which time their enemy may act with abandon. It only takes a little concussion damage to keep them down too while the attacker moves up for the killing shot/blow.

Therefore it's damn good practice for a PC with a high initiative to carry a grenade launcher, even if they don't have a very good (or even any) skill. Near enough is good enough....

And lets not even talk about infections!

[B.T.]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

And the average 9mm pistol does 1D6 also... Doesn't that make a punch somewhat overpowered?

You're right! That's one of the reasons, why I'm not happy with the melee damages. The majority of PCs and detailed NPCs did not spent points to increase "Unarmed Melee". So the most PCs do a damage of "1". That's a bit weak. Maybe something like 1d6 / 2 or 1d3 damage, reducing the "Unarmed Combat Damage" and apply as a bonus?
I mean, an experienced martial artist can (under certain circumstances) break an opponents arm!

How do you handle this, Leg? (Now, off course, if anyone else want's to give his 2 cents, you're welcome!)

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by B.T.

How do you handle this, Leg? (Now, off course, if anyone else want's to give his 2 cents, you're welcome!)

I shoot the enemy. Eliminate the problem entirely!

My theory is the army issues you with a rifle so you can shoot the enemy way over there.
They issue you a bayonet so you can stab the enemy way over there.
Why let them get close enough for a punch?

[B.T.]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

My theory is the army issues you with a rifle so you can shoot the enemy way over there.
They issue you a bayonet so you can stab the enemy way over there.
Why let them get close enough for a punch?

So it is written, so it shall be done ...

[Legbreaker]

One other option my be to treat unarmed damage as mostly Stun. Perhaps 1/4 is permanent (bruising, cracked ribs, etc) and the rest "disappears" after a suitable period?

[weswood]

The rules system I prefer (Top Secret/SI) has 3 types of damage: constitutition damage, for things like poison, bruise damage for things like punchinng, kicking and blunt weapons and wound damage for penetrating and slicing damage.

For example, a typical character has 5 hit points per area- head, left or right chest, abdomen, left/right arm, left/right hand and left/right leg. A baseball bat does 1-6 points wound damage, a 9mmP does 1-6 wound damage.

Hand to hand is determined by the character's skill check roll. The system uses percentile die to determine success/fail. It also gives a hit location and damage for weaponless hand to hand. If a character rolls a 40% in boxing, the "tens" die gives the amount of bruise damage (4 points) in the head (area 0= head). 4 points is lower than the character's total for that area, so he keeps on fighting. If it was 5 or more bruise points to the head, it would be a KO. At twice the amount of hit points, he'd have a cracked skull.

Wound damage supercedes bruise damage. If the character above got out of the fight with 4 bruise points to the head (call it a black eye for fun) and gets into a firefight later and takes 3 points from a firearm (wound damage) the character would have 3 points wound damage and 1 point bruise damage.

Maybe that would help, keep seperate track of wound and bruise damage for the T2K character. Maybe come up with a weaponless combat system with better damage potential.

[WallShadow]

<Delicately avoiding the entire "butt crack problems" and "violating plumbers' things(?!?)" discussion>

Lots of people who were members of the SCA (Society for Creative Anachronism) were also in the military _and_ stationed in Europe in the mid to late 1990's. I'm sure their melee skills would give them an advantage with baton/bat/axe/sword/club/spear, and they could teach shield-wall tactics to local ORMO troops for riot control-- mighty handy in the Great Free City of Krackow when the KGB-incited mob rises up in revolt.

I can also see some of them flying their heraldic devices to catch the attention of other SCAdians they might encounter. ("Holy crap! That's Sir Manfred's device painted on that BMP! Hold your fire!") Of course what the locals might think of this, who could tell?

[Badbru]

Originally Posted by B.T.

You're right! That's one of the reasons, why I'm not happy with the melee damages. The majority of PCs and detailed NPCs did not spent points to increase "Unarmed Melee". So the most PCs do a damage of "1". That's a bit weak. Maybe something like 1d6 / 2 or 1d3 damage, reducing the "Unarmed Combat Damage" and apply as a bonus?
I mean, an experienced martial artist can (under certain circumstances) break an opponents arm!

How do you handle this, Leg? (Now, off course, if anyone else want's to give his 2 cents, you're welcome!)

I don't mess with the damage system. Once you change one part of it, melee, bullets, you then need to change explosions etc etc...

Just reduce hit points.

Instead of head being Con x2 I have it as just Con.
Instead of chest being Str + Con x3 I have it as just x2
Instead of all other areas being Str + Con x2, just Str + Con.

Everything just becomes a little more lethal, including poisions and infections, diseases... etc etc.
Simple.

And, maybe I got it wrong back in the day but I allways played melee as being +1d6. The melee damage is points, not dice, so the +1d6 was the randomiser. Maybe I have it wrong but that allways worked ok for us.

[Legbreaker]

As I was sort of indicating before, melee combat is rarely used in my games as there's far better methods of dealing with the enemy. If silence is required, crossbows, hunting bows, silencers and the like all have their place. If it's absolutely NECESSARY to lay actual hands on an enemy to ensure their silence, the fight is already lost unless absolute surprise is gained. In that case the damage is probably irrelevant and the result should be up to a straight skill roll and GM judgement.

[Targan]

Really? I find that incredibly sad. A hard fought, close in melee or martial arts fight can be a highpoint of any T2K session. The more realistic the rules for that, the better. Again, IMHO.

[Legbreaker]

Why take a knife to a gun fight? For that matter, why go unarmed at all?
Hit 'em hard, hit 'em fast with the biggest, nastiest weapon you can lay your hands on I say. There's nothing great about a fair fight when your life is on the line.
The best result is red mist.

[Targan]

I'm not suggesting that you go in unarmed. There have been many times that I can think of in games I've run where people have got into melee and martial arts fights while armed with firearms. Face to face negotiations during a trade could go horribly wrong, for instance. And in one mini-campaign I ran in which the PCs were French Foreign Legionnaires on a mission near the Iran-Iraq border the game culminated in a vicious fight among the thorn bushes with a bunch of Spetznaz, a couple of the PCs got down to one magazine left each and then fixed bayonets and charged in to meet their ends in ways befitting of real men