U.S. Marines on the Baltic: Task Force Inchon

[Legbreaker]

Of course the Polish are supposed to be members of the Warsaw Pact and fighting against the US Marines. As of the 1st of July 2000, only a handful of Poles have switched sides, and the marines aren't amongst them.

[Webstral]

The various Polish Free Legions are troops fighting for the Allies. It's hard to know how many Polish EPW were picked up in 1997. It's hard to say how many individual Poles or small Polish units allowed themselves to be captured or defected outright. The opportunity for many thousands of Polish troops to be captured certainly exists. We know that NATO units often include soldiers of the former Warsaw Pact.

[oldschoolgm]

I really like what you have written Raellus on this. I've been looking over this part of the T2K for some time now and much of my ideas coincide with what you've written.

Several things come to my mind of this and some of it has already been expressed by others. According to the books, the 2nd Div. has a good number of men and vehicles in July of 2000. The US Vehicle Guide then states that by November they have almost no vehicles and have increased in their numbers.

One source on this forum, where I can't remember, mentioned that this area around Elblarg is being where the Polish Cavalry is horse bound. Given the lack of fuel due to the sinking of the transport ship, thanks Leg, this mobility by the Polish cavalry would present some interesting difficulties for the marines.

Another thought that crossed my mind, especially if we are talking about securing avenues of transportation, is that your scenario sounds an aweful lot like an amphibious version of 'The Bridge Too Far,' and/or Operation Market Garden. In many ways this lines up with my thinking and planning for this area.

Again, thanks for sharing all of this, you've really got my mind turning now.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by oldschoolgm

Again, thanks for sharing all of this, you've really got my mind turning now.

No problem, Old School. I'm really pleased that you like it.

Originally Posted by oldschoolgm

Another thought that crossed my mind, especially if we are talking about securing avenues of transportation, is that your scenario sounds an aweful lot like an amphibious version of 'The Bridge Too Far,' and/or Operation Market Garden. In many ways this lines up with my thinking and planning for this area.

In fact, I call my campaign "A Beach Too Far" for precisely the reasons you mention.

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by Webstral

The various Polish Free Legions are troops fighting for the Allies. It's hard to know how many Polish EPW were picked up in 1997. It's hard to say how many individual Poles or small Polish units allowed themselves to be captured or defected outright. The opportunity for many thousands of Polish troops to be captured certainly exists. We know that NATO units often include soldiers of the former Warsaw Pact.

Legbreaker:

This isn't to say no Poles would have been there, but you can be sure they'd have had to prove their loyalty to the west many many times, and still be in small numbers. Most likely that handful of Poles would still only be included as guides and possibly interpreters and kept as far from the task force HQ (and the sensitive information it contained) as possible.

I still like the use of the WW2 Polish government-in-exile making itself the core of the Polish Free Congress, and working to set up guides & translators from volunteers from '97, including PWs and civilians. I agree that not much more than platoons might be formed (which would be a disappointment to all concerned), largely from anti-German/anti-invader sentiment. That said, I think there would be a strong effort to set up a spy & guerrilla network within Poland, with varying levels of success/loyalty. THAT'S something I'd like to explore in another campaign. (The one I'm running now is dominated by 13-year-olds, and I don't expect them to follow me into a le Carre-style house of mirrors.)

oldschoolgm:

One source on this forum, where I can't remember, mentioned that this area around Elblag is being where the Polish Cavalry is horse bound. Given the lack of fuel due to the sinking of the transport ship, thanks Leg, this mobility by the Polish cavalry would present some interesting difficulties for the marines.

That's something that I expect this current game to discover very shortly. They've got two vehicles, but they'll need to stop to brew & tinker, and those horse troopers won't.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Of course the Polish are supposed to be members of the Warsaw Pact and fighting against the US Marines. As of the 1st of July 2000, only a handful of Poles have switched sides, and the marines aren't amongst them.

Certainly not en toto, but there's nothing saying that a couple dozen Polish Marines or so haven't turned coats and joined the Leathernecks.

Considering the light rioting that went on earlier this week in Poland when the home country played Russia in the Euros, it's clear that even twenty years after the fall of the Iron Curtain, there's still a lot of bad blood between Poles and Russians.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Certainly not en toto, but there's nothing saying that a couple dozen Polish Marines or so haven't turned coats and joined the Leathernecks.

I agree some Poles may be found in evidence, but whole units of greater than a cobbled together Company is extremely unlikely for a number of reasons.
Firstly, we have no evidence of Polish Marines defecting. This isn't to say none did, just that no unit did. Also, it's quite possible some of the recent additions to the US Marines would have been given at least some training, if only to familiarise them with US doctrines and techniques.
Secondly, Poland as a country has a much longer standing "disagreement" with Germany. Throughout several centuries, Poland has been invaded, split up, portioned out, traded and the people generally given little say in their own well-being and interests. Half of Poland even speaks German in preference to Polish because of this relative lack of national history.
Thirdly, Germany, supported by Nato (which as we know includes the US) are the aggressors in all versions of the game. Germany invaded Poland again in 1996. The USSR were one of the only countries in the world which stood shoulder to shoulder with them right from the beginning even though they were heavily involved in a war with another superpower, China at the time.
Since the Pact counter offensive in 1997, Nato has been kept out of Poland allowing both the USSR and loyal Polish governments (what's left of them anyway) virtually free reign to spread their own propaganda. The Soviets might not be the nicest of neighbours, but at least they're helping keep out the western invaders.
Fourthly, Nato instigated a scorched earth policy when they were withdrawing in late 1997 using everything from a lit match right up to and including nuclear weapons. Yes, the USSR also used nukes, however they've had three years to convince the Poles that a) it was the only way and b) Nato are responsible for the vast majority of them.

Given those (and other) factors, my guess is those in the higher echelons of the US 2nd Marines would have been very, very keen to keep Polish troops well away from the more critical areas of the 2000 Offensive, Elblag being one of those locations. This isn't to say no Poles would have been there, but you can be sure they'd have had to prove their loyalty to the west many many times, and still be in small numbers. Most likely that handful of Poles would still only be included as guides and possibly interpreters and kept as far from the task force HQ (and the sensitive information it contained) as possible.

Originally Posted by Raellus

Considering the light rioting that went on earlier this week in Poland when the home country played Russia in the Euros, it's clear that even twenty years after the fall of the Iron Curtain, there's still a lot of bad blood between Poles and Russians.

Polish football "fans" have been developing a rightly deserved reputation for violence for a few years now. Many of them are more of a problem than the more well known British football hooligans of previous generations. There are two football teams in Krakow. Their "supporters" are the worst of the lot and bloodshed between them is commonplace. It's not unknown for murders to occur almost weekly just because somebody wanders into the wrong part of town wearing the wrong colour.

Therefore, if the Poles are that violent to each other in the same city, how well are they going to take somebody from another country!?

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Secondly, Poland as a country has a much longer standing "disagreement" with Germany. Throughout several centuries, Poland has been invaded, split up, portioned out, traded and the people generally given little say in their own well-being and interests. Half of Poland even speaks German in preference to Polish because of this relative lack of national history.

You're missing/ommitting a couple of very key points, Leg.

Poland's uncivil relationship with Russia is nearly as long and just as contentious. Russia/Ukraine has been claiming/ruling large portions of Poland for centuries- it's not just a Cold War issue. In the more recent past, before WWII, there were two major camps in the Polish government and military- those who felt Germany was the greater threat and those who felt Russia (USSR) was worse. Many rightly realized that both neighbors were enemies in waiting. Those folks turned out to be dead right (literally). Poland, however, didn't have the military resources to counter both threats and they knew this. It was a very difficult position to be in. No matter which way the Poles turned, there was clear and present danger lurking right next door.

During the Cold War, there were Polish protests against de facto Soviet occupation. They weren't good buddies, even though they were "allies".

The recent rioting wasn't just random "hooliganism" and it wasn't just directed against "fans of another country"- it was specifically directed against Russian fans conducting a Russia Day march through a Polish host city. Why such a march was even allowed on Polish soil is somewhat baffling, but some Polish citizens decided to do something about it themselves and Polish riot police had to be called in to stop the violence. Fact of the matter is, there is still a lot of bad blood between Poles and Russians.

http://espnfc.com/us/en/news/1102063...y-trouble.html

I do agree with your point that since NATO was the aggressor and brought the war to Poland, that the scales of Polish anger and hatred would probably have tipped more against Germany.

On the other hand, if the Soviets treated their Polish allies as canon fodder during WWIII, some of the leadership and men of those units might decide that it would be less risky to fight against the Soviets than for them.

[simonmark6]

I have several Polish friends and acquaintances from various parts of my life. I lived next door to a Polish family whose Grandfather lived with them and had was a veteran of the World War. I had friends in University from Poland and now my cleaner in school is Polish (I'm teaching her English) and I have taught several Poles in school over the last ten years.

I've brought up the opinions that Poles have about Germans and Russians on several occasions and all the people I have spoken to all agree that the Poles hate the Russians more than they do the Germans. In fact, Old Mr. Dubrowski told me a joke about a Polish unit in the last days of fighting.

Their officer said, "We're surrounded with the Germans on the left and the Russians on the right. Which should we attack first?"

The Senior NCO replied, "We attack the Germans, Sir, we always conduct business before pleasure."

This was confirmed by my University friends who had lived through Communism and were just seeing freedom, granted they were probably the most Pro-West of their generation, but they resented the East more than the Germans.

More recently I've been able to speak with a wider range of people from academics to blue collar workers and they all hate the Russians more than the Germans. Blata, my cleaner, put it best: she said that the Poles didn't really understand the German mind set and treat them like a force of nature more to be endured rather than resented; the Russians are fellow Slavs and it is more like an on-going family feud. It may be put aside temporarily but eventually you go back to the feud with renewed vigour.

Now, that doesn't mean that the Poles would be deserting en mass, especially as everybody took a massive dump on them during the war but it does probably explain the situation in the game where groups of Western troops get a less-than-hostile reception in many parts of the country.

As for the Russians having three years to convince the Poles that it was all the West's fault, another Pole told me they have a saying, "How can you tell a Russian is lying? His mouth is moving and words are coming out."

Does that mean that there would be whole units of defected Polish Marines in the US roster? I doubt it: the Polish Marines are an elite unit still under the command of the Polish Government (pro-Soviet, true, but still "the Government"), I can see small numbers defecting (enough for flavour at least), but the majority are going to hold together for now especially as existing material suggests they've been held in reserve and may not have the feeling that some faceless bureaucrat is frittering their lives away in a pointless war in the way that most defecting units seem to have been treated.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by simonmark6

As for the Russians having three years to convince the Poles that it was all the West's fault, another Pole told me they have a saying, "How can you tell a Russian is lying? His mouth is moving and words are coming out."

Which is exactly why it wouldn't be the Russians doing the talking - they'd get loyal Poles, Czechs, and whoever else they could drag in to be the mouthpieces.
Propaganda also doesn't have to be verbal. A few posters stuck up on trees here and there, newspaper reports and just about any other form of communication (right up to smoke signals!) could and probably would be used.
They're not new to the game. They know what they're up against and how best to go about their work. Will they be 100% successful? Highly doubtful, but they will have an important impact.
Meanwhile, Nato, not being there on the ground where it counts, isn't going to make a lot of headway with the hearts and minds campaign.

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Propaganda also doesn't have to be verbal. A few posters stuck up on trees here and there, newspaper reports and just about any other form of communication (right up to smoke signals!) could and probably would be used.
They're not new to the game. They know what they're up against and how best to go about their work. Will they be 100% successful? Highly doubtful, but they will have an important impact.
Meanwhile, Nato, not being there on the ground where it counts, isn't going to make a lot of headway with the hearts and minds campaign.

Very important, the Soviets will have had 40+ years of peacetime and 3+ years of war to sink their message in. My vision of the 1997 NATO invasion of Poland has lots of Poles, individually, welcoming the Americans and British (tolerating the Germans at best) forces, hundreds if not thousands joining the Polish forces in exile or volunteering as translators and the like.

BUT when the Soviets push NATO back to the Oder in the autumn, and the nukes are used by both sides, nearly all of whatever goodwill the NATO/anti-Soviet forces had built up would have disappeared. When NATO doesn't come back in '98 or '99, there's darn few opportunities to stoke it up again. I still hold to a failed Polish attempt to organize mass defections as a keystone to planning the summer '00 offensive, and this is a piece of that.