Weapon conversion question.

[stg58fal]

Steal the stats from the USAS-12 and adjust mag capacity, ROF, etc, or shamelessly rip off the H&K CAWS.

Then spend the rest of the campaign showing him just how friggin useless a shotgun is in combat outside of a very few instances.

Shotgun < rifle

There are a few good uses for them in urban warfare. I still prefer a rifle or SAW, but shotguns have some utility.

[James Langham]

A few random thoughts:

* See my article on US shotguns for back story on the AA12 being used

* Do the magazines fit any ammo pouches he has, reload times are higher if you need to get the mags out of a pack.

* Will the AA12 cycle the action with specialist rounds? Very few auto shotguns will reliably.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Some other real world considerations for the AA-12.

The magazine is noisy, the rounds seat well enough but it still rattles - so much for stealth

Reloading requires that the magazine slot into the strut in front of the trigger - try doing that at night, in the cold, with slippery hands - there's a reason most of the YouTube clips don't show them placing a fresh mag on the shotgun, because then you'd see the primary failing of the AA-12.



The magazine HAS to seat on that strut, otherwise it'll move around too much and weaken the mag catch because it's too heavy for the magazine well

The USAS-12 is every bit as good as the AA-12 with a much lower cost and better availability but it still hasn't been taken into service by any military/police agency in significant numbers.
So if the cops and the soldiers didn't buy the USAS-12, they wouldn't bother with the AA-12 especially given the weakness in the magazine setup... unless of course a slick ad campaign can convince the politicians that the AA-12 is the "World's deadliest shotgun!" and will rewrite the laws of urban combat

[Gideon020]

- I'll try and look it up, though a link if you have one would be nice, thank you.

-Nope, 32-round drums. If he wanted it so bad, he can deal with having to find a way to carry large, bulky ammo drums.

-According to some research I did, it should cycle reliably as the Frag-12 was developed to complement the AA-12, but the chance of jams are the same as any other automatic weapon I'd say. ALso, less-lethal rounds require cycling the chamber manually apparently.

And the mags have to be seated on a strut in front of the trigger eh? That gives me ideas. And somehow I'm not surprised that the shells would rattle.

Edit:

I decided to break the weapon at the end of the session by having the recoil mechanism fail and barrel warp due to it being used without even so much as cleaning and occasional servicing, requiring that he hunt down another AA-12 to repair it (one of the other players did have Gunsmith but I made it an Impossible roll unless they found replacement parts), and the real kicker? He practically dumped his Remington 800 and most of his spare 12-guage ammo just to carry five useless 32-round Frag-12 magazines which are now dead-weight.

[WallShadow]

Originally Posted by Gideon020

I decided to break the weapon at the end of the session by having the recoil mechanism fail and barrel warp due to it being used without even so much as cleaning and occasional servicing, requiring that he hunt down another AA-12 to repair it (one of the other players did have Gunsmith but I made it an Impossible roll unless they found replacement parts), and the real kicker? He practically dumped his Remington 800 and most of his spare 12-guage ammo just to carry five useless 32-round Frag-12 magazines which are now dead-weight.

What fools these mortals be.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I did a check through my books because I vaguely recalled a comment from Marc Miller of GDW saying that Loren Wiseman was quite interested in the AA-12 when it was originally the Atchisson Assault 12gauge. Apparently that's the reason it's included in the T2k 2nd Ed. Infantry Weapons book.



If I remember what he said, there was some issue with getting the Atchisson into production and Loren Wiseman and some others from the GDW crew had put deposits down to purchase said shotgun but the money got wasted on moving the manufacturer's headquarters. So the info above about the shotgun having been made in Korea in limited numbers could be right from the direct experience of Mr Wiseman.

Anyway, the image above is obviously the entry from the Infantry Weapons book, take a look at the Availability - if nothing else, you can show your Player that page in the book and "prove" that his dream gun is as rare as rockinghorse s**t

[Gideon020]

Hmm, I'll have to see if I can find a copy of that book so I can use those stats, or at least a PDF. If not, I'll just use that pic instead.

Still though, thanks for the advice and such, its been a real big help to me.

[Rockwolf66]

I have an NPC who has an origional AA-12 shotgun. the only real modification they have done to it was to add a Duckbill choke to it. Unless they are clearing a house or guarding prisoners* She tends to use it as a secondary weapon.


*One single demonstration shot is usually enough to get groups of prisoners to behave as one shot will hit several people and there are alot of shells.

[headquarters]

players too well armed for ya? let em have a taste of their own medicine.

let the players encounter enemies with 12 gage auto shotguns with some speciality rounds in the mix - buck,slugs, sabots, flares, coarse salt whatever else..


if you can corner the party at cqb ranges it with baddies waiting for em around every other bend it usually makes taking point alot less attractive..



what ? a gm need his kicks to...

[Mahatatain]

Originally Posted by Gideon020

Edit:

I decided to break the weapon at the end of the session by having the recoil mechanism fail and barrel warp due to it being used without even so much as cleaning and occasional servicing, requiring that he hunt down another AA-12 to repair it (one of the other players did have Gunsmith but I made it an Impossible roll unless they found replacement parts), and the real kicker? He practically dumped his Remington 800 and most of his spare 12-guage ammo just to carry five useless 32-round Frag-12 magazines which are now dead-weight.

I have a vague memory of researching the AA-12 for a Morrow Project style game I was setting up and the player who wanted one found some videos on YouTube where they talked about the reliability of the weapon and how in tests they had fired a vast number of shells with it without ever needing to clean it.

If I'm right and you've got a picky and argumentative player then you might get challenged on that decision so be prepared to trash it in other ways!

[Rockwolf66]

Personally I am a fan of having weapons trashed in a fire fight, Heck drop a grenade round at the character's feet and say that the gun is damaged beyond use if the survive.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Rockwolf66

Personally I am a fan of having weapons trashed in a fire fight, Heck drop a grenade round at the character's feet and say that the gun is damaged beyond use if the survive.

Absolutely. Also, in RL it's not unheard of for firearms to be struck by bullets during combat and rendered unusable. In-game it can make for a great love-hate situation for a PC - for instance, they lose their prized firearm but upon reflection realise that the bullet that struck their firearm would've hit them in the armpit, missing their kevlar and almost certainly leaving them mortally wounded.

[pmulcahy11b]

Most small arms ammunition drums have to be wound before firing. Anyone know if that's true of the AA-12's drum?

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Targan

Absolutely. Also, in RL it's not unheard of for firearms to be struck by bullets during combat and rendered unusable. In-game it can make for a great love-hate situation for a PC - for instance, they lose their prized firearm but upon reflection realise that the bullet that struck their firearm would've hit them in the armpit, missing their kevlar and almost certainly leaving them mortally wounded.

And to take that further, use the 2013 rule whereby a Player can choose to have their PC sacrifice one important piece of gear rather than suffer a fatal gunshot.