Refugee vs rural community (split from Cavalry in T2K)

[Legbreaker]

Propaganda doesn't have to involve electronics, radios, television, or even transportation!

A few posters stuck up here and there such as a weekly "news poster" printed on an old mechanical press by government representatives would work very well. Where transport was available, old style newsreels could come back into use.

Government agents could be sent out into the community to spread rumour, perhaps backed up with some type of evidence such as a newspaper from the other side of the country dated a week or so before with nothing but good news. The options are endless!

Just think of the opportunities for advertising and public relations experts. A whole new division of the government or even military could, would be created just to keep the populace under control.

[Mohoender]

You get a point there.

However, such propaganda won't hold for very long unless it is backed by the local administration. Again, situation will vary from place to place. On that matter I think that T2K provide us with a fair analysis of what the situation could become.

[Raellus]

I think a lot of these projections are a little pessimistic. Sure, there would be chaos and some isolated incidents of urban vs. rural violence but I am hopeful that most people would try to come together and help one another.

The evacuation of East Prussia during the twilight of WWII was relatively orderly (perhaps that was a symptom of living in a fascist police state). Also, German evacuees from its bombed out cities routinely moved to the surrounding countryside to live/work with farm families. Many others camped out in woods and traded their few salvaged valuables for farm produce. I've not read of any skirmishes between city and country folk.

[Mohoender]

They are not at all pessimistic, they are inspired by T2K. Anyway, as nothing occured on that scale during our lifetime you can do as you like.

Effectively, several past events can prove you right. The children of London found refuge in the countryside during the Blitz. In France, if 10.000 jewish children were sent to concentration camps, 40.000 had been saved by anonimous people from all over the country. In Germany, during WW2, as early as 1939, 1 million Germans had already been sent in concentration camps because they resisted the nazis. Despite its loss ,the German resistance remained active until the end.

Saddly, other can prove you wrong. I have never heard of much solidarity in Cambodge during the reign of terror by the Khmers (I might very well be wrong). That event would be the only one in recent history that could compare to the situation in Twilight (still without the same type of chaos). In Ukraine, between 1920-1921, people had been thrown alive in furnaces.

The great plague of the late middle ages and the hundred years war (between England and France) resulted in the massacre of entire communities (people who were not like the locals). Wide bands of marauders were running the land burning and killing on sight. A specific type of marauders were known as the "Ecorcheurs". They were former soldiers raiding the countryside and taking the skin off their breathing victims.

US cavalry massacred women and children during the various wars against natives. Natives were or had been doing the same (By the way, do you know that the custom of taking scalps out had been a french knight tradition?).

During WW2, resistance groups were often fighting among themselves instead of fighting the ennemy (In France and Yugoslavia for exemple). Stalin ordered the red army to stop in front of Warsaw and they simply let the SS destroy the jewish freedom fighter in Warsaw...

About the french war over Algeria I gathered witnesses of massacre from both sides.

After the first Gulf War, Saddam was allowed to send his helicopters against the shii revolt (Shii who had allied with US during the war) with a blank check from the US and UN.

I still refuse to ask my cousin's wife about what had occured in Africa under the Mobutu's regime (backed by the west). The little I already know is enough to disturb my sleep. If you can find the Belgian movie "Lumumba", it is interesting.

Strangely I have the feeling that we can continue over and over. Individuals have a tendency to show mercy but this ends when people start to form into mob. Take me right I'm not condemning anyone. I think that it depends on the situation,on the people, and on events. With chaos, someone can do the worse one day and save a complete stranger the next day; it just happens. In my opinion of course.

In game term, just do as you feel and, yes (on that matter), I might be slightly pessimistic. However, I'm optimistic about the future.

[Raellus]

Mo, I agree that there would be all kinds of strife in the countrysides of countries across the globe in the wake of a war like that described in Twilight canon. However, I think that within countries where there is not a lot of nativistic feeling or ethnic tension, you'd see a good deal of cooperation. Of course, there would be instances of urban refugees fighting with their rural counterparts, but I think that it would be the exception to the rule of cooperation.

A lot of the examples of strife you cited were instances where a foreign power was attacking the locals or rival ethnic groups within a given region were going at it and settling old scores. The only intra-ethnic/national example was the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia and that was Rural guerillas attacking city dwellers.

[Legbreaker]

Add in the spectre of starvation, disease and radiation and you've got yourself some pretty strong motivations for the breakdown of civilisation....

[Graebarde]

In answer to the question if a mayor and/or sheriff can legally organize.. the mayor is the legal elected leader of the community/city. IF he/she has the support of the council (in most communities there is a 'city council', also elected that represent the different areas of the community) I beleive they can, but don't know about all state laws etc.

As for the sheriff.. YES they can deputize and for reserves of unpaid persons which are used for various reasons... disaster releif, crowd control, search and rescue, in addition to hunting fugitives (though not on much scale for this any more). Training for them varies from area to area, some very well trained to almost no training other than a few classes on use of force etc.

I do NOT think, and didn't mean to imply, they would be used as a private army, at least until after TDM. They would be manning road blocks/check points, and YES I think in general there would be the comming together, UNLESS there is an unruley mob involved. Then the bets are off.

Yes there will be factions within any community. Remember these individuals in leadership positions are elected officials and most (if any) were unanamous. But if they are highly respected competent fair leaders (and I'm talking about politicans ) who have the support of the greater majority (70% or better of the community in question I would say) in peace time, locals are more apt to follow their lead/decisions in times of crisis. Again we are talking of a democracy here, so again not all will agree. As time progresses it all depends on local conditions and how well the leaders lead and the people cooperate.

In rural states (ie most states west of the Mississippi and east of the Sierra Nevada at least) I think there would be less friction between the urbanite and rural population as long as the urbanite 'behaved and contributed to the community". After TDM, the day of the freeloader will be over. You want to eat? You work. IT does not have to be manual labor either, child care by elderly or semi-infirm to release ablebodied parents to work for the reconstruction/survival of all comes to mind. The elderly, young, and infirm will be tolerated to not work for the most part, but I think they will. Peer pressure is going to be great as supplies are limited.

Here again... leadership, leadership, leadership and cooperation.

There will ALWAYS be exceptions, and I see Warlords in the scheme of things as well as corruption in places where the population lets it occur.

This is from the US perspective, and perhaps Canadian as well.

In game terms, charisma will be a deciding roll as will intelligence and leadership.


And Leg, the idea of fuel I think is pretty well on. I could see rationing by the spring of 97. I think also that oilseed and alcohol plants will be full blown production of old crop. Biodiesel was not a big item at that time, but diesels (in the warmer months) can run 100% vegoil (sunoil, canola/rape, soybean) with no loss in power. The community college I went to in 83 had an alternative fuels class offered since 73. I've seen the dyno done in person on field tractors and seen the straight run filtered sunflower oil used to plow. BUT the straight run will solidify in colder weather faster than the biodiesel that has been soaponified and had the waxes removed.

[Raellus]

I've been thinking about this topic and a bit from a fantastic book called World War Z came to mind. The episode I'm refering to describes, in all seriousness, floods of urban refugees fleeing a zombie uprising (sounds silly but it's very well done, IMO). Large groups of people camping out in their cars, trucks, buses, RVs, etc, cooperating, helping each other out etc. It all goes pretty well at first. Then, the food runs out. Things get very uncivil pretty quickly after that point.

It makes perfect sense. Most people are likely to work together at first, but then, once the pressure becomes too great, there's going to be conflict.

What's that saying? "There are three kinds of people in this world: sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs." Something like that? I can't attribute this to anyone. Do any of you know where this comes from? I think about it a lot in reference to T2K.

[headquarters]

wouldnt the supply of bio fuels be marginal ? considering that it needs farmland to grow and labour and resources that many would rather have put into food production ?Seeing as food is in short supply I mean .

I mean - in the case of SVO ( yeah -I know it !) it overlaps I guess .But the none edible crops ?

Could it be argued that only those with power enough to retain farmland that can be set aside for fuel production will actually have access to it -and thus be a sort of upper class .

(The people that can run their tractor and thus increase their productivity , not to mention run the engine of the M113 they bartered for food with those starving squaddies that came by -a new class of military and landowning gentry ?)

Originally Posted by Graebarde

In answer to the question if a mayor and/or sheriff can legally organize.. the mayor is the legal elected leader of the community/city. IF he/she has the support of the council (in most communities there is a 'city council', also elected that represent the different areas of the community) I beleive they can, but don't know about all state laws etc.

As for the sheriff.. YES they can deputize and for reserves of unpaid persons which are used for various reasons... disaster releif, crowd control, search and rescue, in addition to hunting fugitives (though not on much scale for this any more). Training for them varies from area to area, some very well trained to almost no training other than a few classes on use of force etc.

I do NOT think, and didn't mean to imply, they would be used as a private army, at least until after TDM. They would be manning road blocks/check points, and YES I think in general there would be the comming together, UNLESS there is an unruley mob involved. Then the bets are off.

Yes there will be factions within any community. Remember these individuals in leadership positions are elected officials and most (if any) were unanamous. But if they are highly respected competent fair leaders (and I'm talking about politicans ) who have the support of the greater majority (70% or better of the community in question I would say) in peace time, locals are more apt to follow their lead/decisions in times of crisis. Again we are talking of a democracy here, so again not all will agree. As time progresses it all depends on local conditions and how well the leaders lead and the people cooperate.

In rural states (ie most states west of the Mississippi and east of the Sierra Nevada at least) I think there would be less friction between the urbanite and rural population as long as the urbanite 'behaved and contributed to the community". After TDM, the day of the freeloader will be over. You want to eat? You work. IT does not have to be manual labor either, child care by elderly or semi-infirm to release ablebodied parents to work for the reconstruction/survival of all comes to mind. The elderly, young, and infirm will be tolerated to not work for the most part, but I think they will. Peer pressure is going to be great as supplies are limited.

Here again... leadership, leadership, leadership and cooperation.

There will ALWAYS be exceptions, and I see Warlords in the scheme of things as well as corruption in places where the population lets it occur.

This is from the US perspective, and perhaps Canadian as well.

In game terms, charisma will be a deciding roll as will intelligence and leadership.


And Leg, the idea of fuel I think is pretty well on. I could see rationing by the spring of 97. I think also that oilseed and alcohol plants will be full blown production of old crop. Biodiesel was not a big item at that time, but diesels (in the warmer months) can run 100% vegoil (sunoil, canola/rape, soybean) with no loss in power. The community college I went to in 83 had an alternative fuels class offered since 73. I've seen the dyno done in person on field tractors and seen the straight run filtered sunflower oil used to plow. BUT the straight run will solidify in colder weather faster than the biodiesel that has been soaponified and had the waxes removed.