Prime Base

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by tsofian

The final point is a little tougher to explain. The entire upper surface of the base should be under direct observation by as many instruments as possible.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by tsofian

The question becomes how to get the data from the sensors to the base. Hard wiring will work but it means that an enemy who finds one sensor can follow the wires back to the base.

Another method would be to use something omni-directional like radio, but that will also leave a big signature footprint.

Finally something tight beamed and unidirectional like microwaves. These could be beamed to a tower at the edge of line of sight and then beamed back to a receiver that is wired into the base

There currently isn't any way to move significant amounts of data through earth without wires or some other kind of physical passage. Soil and rock scatters EM waves really well, and even the best case (HF radio, as far as I know) will still have limited bandwidth and a poor data rate, especially if you are not using a directional transmitter. And if you ARE using a directional transmitter then it will point right to the base even better than any wire would!

Realistically, a series of wires could be run to the base in a manner that would be practically impossible to trace. Anyone able to follow a zig-zagged cable through hundreds of meters of rock is going to get to you anyway.

[tsofian]

Let me explain my idea in a bit more detail.

The top areas of the base has a sophisticated sensor array. This array transmits its data to a microwave tower off in the distance. That tower re-transmits the data back to a well hidden that is wired to the base. Since the receiver is well hidden it will be difficult for the bad guys to get a good start point to trace the wires.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by tsofian

Let me explain my idea in a bit more detail.

The top areas of the base has a sophisticated sensor array. This array transmits its data to a microwave tower off in the distance. That tower re-transmits the data back to a well hidden that is wired to the base. Since the receiver is well hidden it will be difficult for the bad guys to get a good start point to trace the wires.

Is that supposed to be "well hidden antenna"? I am going to assume that it is. Here's the problem.

If your goal is to make tracing the wire difficult, then the wire from the "well hidden antenna" should not be that much harder to find than the wires from the sensors. Remember that the antenna cannot be THAT well hidden if it is still going to function!

And the cost for whatever improvement you have is a whole bunch of radiating sources that are relatively easy to detect and locate, all of which can be crippled by killing the easily identifiable "microwave tower off in the distance". Remember that your antennas are waging a constant war between directionality and size, unless you are putting a pretty big array on all of these they are going to be radiating all over the place. And if you ARE putting big arrays on them, well then stealth won't matter anyway.

[tsofian]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Is that supposed to be "well hidden antenna"? I am going to assume that it is. Here's the problem.

If your goal is to make tracing the wire difficult, then the wire from the "well hidden antenna" should not be that much harder to find than the wires from the sensors. Remember that the antenna cannot be THAT well hidden if it is still going to function!

And the cost for whatever improvement you have is a whole bunch of radiating sources that are relatively easy to detect and locate, all of which can be crippled by killing the easily identifiable "microwave tower off in the distance". Remember that your antennas are waging a constant war between directionality and size, unless you are putting a pretty big array on all of these they are going to be radiating all over the place. And if you ARE putting big arrays on them, well then stealth won't matter anyway.

Most of those points are well made.

Hiding a receiver can be done. Build a thing that looks like a rock out of what they make radomes out of and there ya go. In fact the Project probably has a number of hidden arrays like this scattered around prime base to support the communications module when it goes active. Actually I figure the antennae in the communications module are all concealed by this sort of thing even when they are in the raised and active position, as much as they can be depending upon wave length

[ArmySGT.]

Would not Receiver to wire, wire to re-transmitter, re-transmitter to re-transmitter, to receiver to wire..........solve most of the detection problems...... It doesn't make it uncomplicated.

Also if you are using Omni directional burst transmissions along with frequency hopping ........like SINCGARS....... detection is near impossible and the direction of the intended receiver is unknown too.

SINCGARS transmits over a range of one to 1500 channels.. You can use one channel for instance to do direct with a civil authority. Normal operation is in frequency hopping mode. You upload the "Key" that tells the microprocessor in the SINCGARS radio which frequencies are true and for how long. Most are transmitted on for nanoseconds individually, thus you need to know precisely which frequencies and duration or you get nothing... It all sounds like solar static and bleed off from everything else transmitting radio noise.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Would not Receiver to wire, wire to re-transmitter, re-transmitter to re-transmitter, to receiver to wire..........solve most of the detection problems...... It doesn't make it uncomplicated.

Remember that every link is another chance for something to go wrong. Indeed, the more links you have, the easier it is for someone to deliberately render you blind.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Also if you are using Omni directional burst transmissions along with frequency hopping ........like SINCGARS....... detection is near impossible and the direction of the intended receiver is unknown too.

SINCGARS transmits over a range of one to 1500 channels.. You can use one channel for instance to do direct with a civil authority. Normal operation is in frequency hopping mode. You upload the "Key" that tells the microprocessor in the SINCGARS radio which frequencies are true and for how long. Most are transmitted on for nanoseconds individually, thus you need to know precisely which frequencies and duration or you get nothing... It all sounds like solar static and bleed off from everything else transmitting radio noise.

Yes and no. We have a tendency to assume a certain superiority in our technology that is not always 100% true. SINCGARS is extremely difficult to detect... if you only have a limited time and instruments to catch it. If I have the right tools and the ability to park near a stationary transmitter, I can find it after a relative handful of transmissions. Remember that you are talking about a set of stationary transmitters - concealing the message is pretty easy, concealing their location is not.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Remember that every link is another chance for something to go wrong. Indeed, the more links you have, the easier it is for someone to deliberately render you blind.

True, failure is in the system but, you would have an army of technicians available.

As for deliberate intent. No system is fool proof or survives first contact with a hostile force. Redundancy and simultaneous transmission. Sure, they go a signal; one, five, twenty, and echoes. Then they have to pin it down form all the camouflage and ground clutter. I would rather herd cats.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Yes and no. We have a tendency to assume a certain superiority in our technology that is not always 100% true. SINCGARS is extremely difficult to detect... if you only have a limited time and instruments to catch it. If I have the right tools and the ability to park near a stationary transmitter, I can find it after a relative handful of transmissions. Remember that you are talking about a set of stationary transmitters - concealing the message is pretty easy, concealing their location is not.

You would have to have a system that could scan the entirety of the radio spectrum; then discern nanoseconds of deliberate transmission from radioactivity or solar activity, even stellar activity. The time spacing between the deliberately chopped up radio is also deliberately at different intervals. Far too fast for a human, it takes a computer processor to gather it all, and render it back into a coherent, properly ordered transmission. Note, it is also encrypted too. This way private snuffy can't eavesdrop on the Corps commanders push to Divisions, separate Brigades, and task forces. If you don't have the encryption; you don't have the time (satellite cesium clock regulated), the frequency hop, or the message unlocked to determine if you heard the noise from a star that died a billion years ago or .000000001 of second transmission for "Radio check, over".


This makes radio intercept unlikely in the extreme.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Remember that every link is another chance for something to go wrong. Indeed, the more links you have, the easier it is for someone to deliberately render you blind.

I would think that Prime Base would have many, many transmitters. These would be spread about to conceal the location of the Base..... The transmission antennas are expendable. They spent a lot of time and money on the unmanned transmission site in Final Watch. I would expect that Prime Base can use directional antennas or burst transmission to Morrowsat to communicate through a retransmission site. A retransmission site would have Omni and directional antennas built in. You could find it but, any one of several directional antennas could be point back toward Prime Base or another retrains site, or a U.S. facility, or a precoordinated trans site for a Combined Group.

TMP excels in sophisticated over the top and elaborate schemes.... So any of this isn't out of character for the Morrow Project.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Yes and no. We have a tendency to assume a certain superiority in our technology that is not always 100% true. SINCGARS is extremely difficult to detect... if you only have a limited time and instruments to catch it. If I have the right tools and the ability to park near a stationary transmitter, I can find it after a relative handful of transmissions. Remember that you are talking about a set of stationary transmitters - concealing the message is pretty easy, concealing their location is not.

That finds one transmitter. If that transmitter is a retransmitter or one that links to another omnidirectional burst transmitter in a chain what did you gain?

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by tsofian

Hiding a receiver can be done. Build a thing that looks like a rock out of what they make radomes out of and there ya go. In fact the Project probably has a number of hidden arrays like this scattered around prime base to support the communications module when it goes active. Actually I figure the antennae in the communications module are all concealed by this sort of thing even when they are in the raised and active position, as much as they can be depending upon wave length

You can always try and conceal an antenna, but you can't permanently conceal one in a convincing way - the materials you can easily transmit through are not generally the kind you can do convincing foliage out of. There are some recent developments that can last a few months at a time, but that is about it, and that isn't really any better than the sensors you want to install.

And radiating sources are still relatively easy to spot, with relatively simple instrumentation, but more on that later.