"Sovereign Citizens" and the Freemen movement

[LT. Ox]

Originally Posted by RN7

This actually is a very interesting topic and I can see this happening in T2K as the rights of the Sovereign Citizen as termed under Common English Law which is the defacto law of the land in most of the former British Empire and the United States is legally the highest authority in the land.

All of our major laws are part of the Common Law, practically every other legal entity has been introduced by governments for commercial and revenue generating reasons and are acts and technicalities of fairly dubious legal authority. The entire judicial system in the Western English speaking world is I believe commercial law which is not legally binding under Common Law.

Police officers are officers of the peace, and legally have no right to question or arrest you if you have not broken the peace or broken a law. If you have not broken a law they have no right to ask for your name and address, and traffic and tax violations are not laws so the police have no real right to bother you over them. You also have no obligation to sign anything in a police station including a release document if you have broken no law.

There are also a lot of technicalities that you can legally challenge if you receive a summons or a fine by mail. Summonses have to be legally delivered to you in person, and all government mail is actually phrased incorrectly (deliberately) as it addresses you in your commercial strawman name in CAPS which is not your real name on your birth certificate. As you have never signed any document agreeing to the legality of a commercial summons or fine do not legally have to pay it or even attend court as you have broken no Common Law. That also applies to the draft or conscription into the armed forces.

Also a judge has no other name than a judge. Using your honour etc is court is optional. Also a judge is supposed to carry their oath with them at all times in court. Very few do and if you are in court for breaking an actual law and happen to ask the judge to see his oath and he or she cant produce it then the court is invalid and you are entitled to walk free and the judge knows it

Loads of potential T2k material for the legally unhappy to challenge authority.

Having been a Deputy Sheriff for a good part of my life and trained a number of Officers that still are active I have some knowledge of what you are discussing. Your use of definitive terms makes it appear that there is no room for discussion or debate.

However, English Common law is not the law of the United States, it is the base from which our law is derived much as the English language has evolved so has jurisprudence.

Our system of Law has a number of similarities and a large number of differences from Magna Carta influenced Common law, first among them is the Constitution of the United States wherein each state is given the right to make and amend laws as is deemed proper and with-in common sense to those persons elected to represent the people and to enact and enforce those laws.
The so called system as is put forth by those attempting to circumvent those laws is a non-workable and undefined or a best poorly defined set of guidelines with which to enact law.

Over two hundred years of change and challenge has brought us to the place we are now, do I agree with all the laws of this land? No, But I will follow the tenants set forth and will seek to change those I disagree with, in a lawful manner. I will not, upon being contacted by an Officer, demand that Officer follow my personal definition of what is right.

As a tool for gaming I do however see several venues or plot lines that might be followed to generate sufficient conflict as to be playable. I saw enough of that conflict when I charged and arrested then prosecuted those that held some of those ideas.

Oh by the way I do not think it wise to give out such leagal advice as you have put forth in your post, you could be in error and just might lead someone into serious trouble.

Harry O

[RN7]

Originally Posted by LT. Ox

Having been a Deputy Sheriff for a good part of my life and trained a number of Officers that still are active I have some knowledge of what you are discussing. Your use of definitive terms makes it appear that there is no room for discussion or debate.

No LT. Ox I am not making it appear that there is no room for debate. On the contrary I would be happy to debate this or see others debate this.

Originally Posted by LT. Ox

However, English Common law is not the law of the United States, it is the base from which our law is derived much as the English language has evolved so has jurisprudence.

And did I not state that " The US Constitution is I think partially based on English Common Law, now known as American Common Law. After the revolution some English Common Laws or traditions were outlawed by the US Constitution, but some were retained and over the past 230 years they have just divergence from British laws but still exist."

Originally Posted by LT. Ox

Our system of Law has a number of similarities and a large number of differences from Magna Carta influenced Common law, first among them is the Constitution of the United States wherein each state is given the right to make and amend laws as is deemed proper and with-in common sense to those persons elected to represent the people and to enact and enforce those laws. The so called system as is put forth by those attempting to circumvent those laws is a non-workable and undefined or a best poorly defined set of guidelines with which to enact law.

Over two hundred years of change and challenge has brought us to the place we are now........

And did I not state again " The US Constitution is I think partially based on English Common Law, now known as American Common Law. After the revolution some English Common Laws or traditions were outlawed by the US Constitution, but some were retained and over the past 230 years they have just divergence from British laws but still exist."......

And... "All US states except Louisiana have enacted reception statutes which generally state that the common law of England is the law of the state to the extent that it is not repugnant to domestic law or indigenous conditions" ?

Originally Posted by LT. Ox

do I agree with all the laws of this land? No, But I will follow the tenants set forth and will seek to change those I disagree with, in a lawful manner. I will not, upon being contacted by an Officer, demand that Officer follow my personal definition of what is right.

And if you were contacted by a police officer for whatever reason I think it would be advisable to act in a lawful manner.

Originally Posted by LT. Ox

As a tool for gaming I do however see several venues or plot lines that might be followed to generate sufficient conflict as to be playable. I saw enough of that conflict when I charged and arrested then prosecuted those that held some of those ideas.

Which I think is the reason that Schone23666 started the thread.

Originally Posted by LT. Ox

Oh by the way I do not think it wise to give out such leagal advice as you have put forth in your post, you could be in error and just might lead someone into serious trouble.

And do you really think that the members of this board seek legal advice for me? If you do I'm very flattered but really I'm actually just stating facts which are freely available online, and I stated these facts to support Schone23666's statement about the current Sovereign Citizen movement and how it could relate to a T2K scenario. However if you feel that some members of this site might be a bit feeble minded and be influenced by my rantings I'll tell them not go out and harass the nearest police officer.

PLEASE DONT DO IT !!!!

[rcaf_777]

Perhaps Lt OX can answer this? which US Agencies can swear in Deputies?

I seem to recall John Wayne doing a lot of that in his movies, I dont know if the US Marhalls Service still have that power.

[.45cultist]

They do. When my BIL was on the KCMO meth task force, they would go to the Marshals and be sworn in when the dealers crossed state lines into Kansas.

[LT. Ox]

Originally Posted by .45cultist

They do. When my BIL was on the KCMO meth task force, they would go to the Marshals and be sworn in when the dealers crossed state lines into Kansas.

Yep and yes again smile. have been a "Deputy US Marshall" for short periods on a number of Occasions either to assist in a Federal arrest or search or to assist in Transport.

[LT. Ox]

"And do you really think that the members of this board seek legal advice for me? If you do I'm very flattered but really I'm actually just stating facts which are freely available online, and I stated these facts to support Schone23666's statement about the current Sovereign Citizen movement and how it could relate to a T2K scenario. However if you feel that some members of this site might be a bit feeble minded and be influenced by my rantings I'll tell them not go out and harass the nearest police officer. "

"PLEASE DONT DO IT !!!!"

Sir I did not, nor do I now think your information was solicited by Members of this board, what I think is dictated by the language of your posts and reoffered by this last is you are posting what you call , and I think strongly believe, are FACTS while in my belief they are disputed as such.
Because something is available on the either is not a proof of its truth or accuracy, as I am sure you are aware.
I have posted in response because of my training, education and much experience with the law and dealing with people that have used the mentioned organizations touted beliefs.
On several occasions contact with those that strongly held to such principles led to confrontation and ultimately to arrest and incarceration. That is fact, not supposition.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by LT. Ox

Sir I did not, nor do I now think your information was solicited by Members of this board, what I think is dictated by the language of your posts and reoffered by this last is you are posting what you call , and I think strongly believe, are FACTS while in my belief they are disputed as such.
Because something is available on the either is not a proof of its truth or accuracy, as I am sure you are aware.
I have posted in response because of my training, education and much experience with the law and dealing with people that have used the mentioned organizations touted beliefs.
On several occasions contact with those that strongly held to such principles led to confrontation and ultimately to arrest and incarceration. That is fact, not supposition.

If you feel that such facts are disputed then please feel free to dispute them.

[Louied]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

Perhaps Lt OX can answer this? which US Agencies can swear in Deputies?

I seem to recall John Wayne doing a lot of that in his movies, I dont know if the US Marhalls Service still have that power.

When I went down to Katrina, we were told that we were all being sworn in as Deputy U.S. Marshals and/or would be sworn in a Deputy Sheriffs in whatever Parish we would be in. The powers that be on my job suddenly became very worried about this when we got down there and NOPD was basically begging us for help (offered to put two of their guys with two of our guys in each car, we called this a combat car up in NY). Sadly the nervous nellies (lawsuits or bad publicity) on my job won out, but we rescued a lot of dogs and cats........(not much actual police work)

[LT. Ox]

Originally Posted by Louied

When I went down to Katrina, we were told that we were all being sworn in as Deputy U.S. Marshals and/or would be sworn in a Deputy Sheriffs in whatever Parish we would be in. The powers that be on my job suddenly became very worried about this when we got down there and NOPD was basically begging us for help (offered to put two of their guys with two of our guys in each car, we called this a combat car up in NY). Sadly the nervous nellies (lawsuits or bad publicity) on my job won out, but we rescued a lot of dogs and cats........(not much actual police work)

In Colorado any certified Officer acting under the cover of his uniform (in line of duty) may enlist the aid of any citizen to perform tasks under direction of himself or another Certified Officer.
This was rarely done in my day and much less so now, possible because of our suit crazy lawyer infested erp..... Way too personal.
Well I will admit that I had some problems with doing that even when it was only to direct traffic at traffic accidents, after all one doe’s not have or take time to do background and phyic evals.
I only deputized two persons to assist me in a true we got work ta do situation here in the good old west and that was at a Bar with a whole lot of drunken cowboys when the PBA rodeo was in town, seems that the good old boys did not take kindly to the MAN getting in way of personnel fights. That was in 1981 and we had twelve Road Deputies for the County 24/7. Having come from Oakland PD to that was a real “ How in the Hell did I get into this situation” moment in time.
,

[Ancestor]

Originally Posted by Louied

When I went down to Katrina, we were told that we were all being sworn in as Deputy U.S. Marshals and/or would be sworn in a Deputy Sheriffs in whatever Parish we would be in. The powers that be on my job suddenly became very worried about this when we got down there and NOPD was basically begging us for help (offered to put two of their guys with two of our guys in each car, we called this a combat car up in NY). Sadly the nervous nellies (lawsuits or bad publicity) on my job won out, but we rescued a lot of dogs and cats........(not much actual police work)

Louied did you go down there as law enforcement or National Guard? I was there with 35th ID (KSARNG) and worked a bunch of legal issues as the only JAG in the Division HQ for the first three weeks. Ran into some similar issues.

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

Perhaps Lt OX can answer this? which US Agencies can swear in Deputies?

I seem to recall John Wayne doing a lot of that in his movies, I dont know if the US Marhalls Service still have that power.

I believe that if push came to shove all police can "Deputies" someone, as in that case all that they are doing is acting under the authority of the one who did so. You do not see it much as if I as a federal officer deputies you and you do something wrong it is on me. With the standards that there are today it is so easy for someone with out training to mess up. At the academy they talked about this just a bit, mostly with things such as if the officer is in a fight for their life and tell someone on the street to do some thing that person is covered.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I had vaguely heard of the Sovereign Citizen movement but didn't ever look in to it or anything. Then while watching King of the Hill, Dale goes off on a crazy rant in court. The judge tells him he can't smoke in the courtroom and Dale says something to the effect that the gold-fringed US flag was a Naval flag and that he didn't have to obey Navy rules (since he'd been dishonorably discharged, if I recall). At the time I thought Mike Judge, the series' creator, had really decided to write some super-wacky nonsense stuff for Dale to spout.

Years later I found out that there are people who actually believe that courtrooms have a gold-fringed flag in them in an attempt to "put you" in a "naval" court "at sea" where the US Constitution doesn't apply, but some arcane laws influenced by Navy rules. I was flabbergasted.

[rcaf_777]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

Years later I found out that there are people who actually believe that courtrooms have a gold-fringed flag in them in an attempt to "put you" in a "naval" court "at sea" where the US Constitution doesn't apply, but some arcane laws influenced by Navy rules. I was flabbergasted.

There an old Law & Order episode called Nunfication. In the episode the criminals attempt to rob a armored car which leads to the prosecution of a suburban right-wing militia group that claims to be at war with the U.S. government.

When the Criminals are put before the Judge at their hearing they claim that they are POW's they can't judge by the court. They ask the judge to refer the case to a military court, which the judge responses she can't do. Then they pull put the flag argument. The judge tell she doesn’t care how many bells or fringes are on that flag, it’s not happening

[Anna Elizabeth]

I used to run into guys like that - the "Gold Fringe" guys, when I worked retail. I guess my politeness was taken for agreement, because they would invariably escalate the conversation towards racism, homophobia, and the like.

Now I just wear my Pride jewelry all the time, and get more nasty looks, but far fewer dumbass conspiracy conversations.