Great Lakes vs Mississippi Usefullness

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

www.flagshipniagra.org

You're missing an "a" from the link...

[rcaf_777]

Originally Posted by kalos72

There is no standing US Navy presence on the Great Lakes are there? Canadian Navy?

Both the Canadian and US Navies are restricted by the Rush-Bagot agreement which restricts the size and armaments of vessels on the Great Lakes. Which was signed at the end of War of 1812.

However the Canadian Navy dose have a fair number of Naval Reserve Divisions in the great lakes and along the Saint Lawrence. They are

In the Great Lakes

HMCS Cataraqui – Kingston Ontario
HMCS Griffon – Thunder Bay Ontario
HMCS Hunter - Windsor Ontario
HMCS Prevost – London Ontario
HMCS Star – Hamilton Ontario
HMCS York – Toronto Ontario

Along the Saint Lawrence

HMCS d'Iberville – Rimouski Quebec
HMCS Jolliet - Sept-Îles Quebec
HMCS Montcalm - Quebec City Quebec
HMCS Queen Charlotte – Charlottetown Prince Edward Island
HMCS Radisson - Trois-Rivières Quebec

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

Both the Canadian and US Navies are restricted by the Rush-Bagot agreement which restricts the size and armaments of vessels on the Great Lakes. Which was signed at the end of War of 1812.

However the Canadian Navy dose have a fair number of Naval Reserve Divisions in the great lakes and along the Saint Lawrence. They are

In the Great Lakes

HMCS Cataraqui – Kingston Ontario
HMCS Griffon – Thunder Bay Ontario
HMCS Hunter - Windsor Ontario
HMCS Prevost – London Ontario
HMCS Star – Hamilton Ontario
HMCS York – Toronto Ontario

Along the Saint Lawrence

HMCS d'Iberville – Rimouski Quebec
HMCS Jolliet - Sept-Îles Quebec
HMCS Montcalm - Quebec City Quebec
HMCS Queen Charlotte – Charlottetown Prince Edward Island
HMCS Radisson - Trois-Rivières Quebec

I have seen some of these ships on the lake. You guys use them like Coast Guard Cutters on occasion. They'd still be a major force on the lakes armed with heavy MGs and light autocannon.

I could see someone taking the two "non-demilled" 20mm autocannon off the USS Little Rock and the 40mm Cannons off the USS The Sullivans (at the Buffalo Naval Museum) and putting them on a larger fishing boat.

[rcaf_777]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

I have seen some of these ships on the lake. You guys use them like Coast Guard Cutters on occasion. They'd still be a major force on the lakes armed with heavy MGs and light autocannon.

Naval Reserve Divisions are what they call Stone Frigates they have no ship assigned to them. Some of these division do have jetties and are located near boat/sailing clubs.

Those vessels you see are the Kingston-class coastal defence vessels which are used occasionally for naval reserve training on the great lakes. They were built from 1994-1999 their homeports are Halifax, Nova Scotia and Victoria Brtish Columbia. Not sure what would happen to them in TW. Possibly used as minesweeper or for training.

However, you could see the older Porte Class Gate Vessels or Bay Class Minesweepers, both were replaced by the Kingston Class. Both could be used in the great lakes for Naval Training using a Naval Divison as a homeport.

Also, it should be noted that the Canadian Coast Guard has a further 21 research and rescue boats on the great lakes. These are all unarmed as Coast Guard is not a classified as a Law enforcement agency as USCG is. Their main duties include s marine search and rescue, communication, navigation aids, marine pollution response and icebreaking.

The RCMP has a two marine craft in great lakes and St Lawerance too.

[kalos72]

rcaf_77 - Do you know the names/classes and where they were stationed?

Any thoughts on T2K deployment?

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by kalos72

rcaf_77 - Do you know the names/classes and where they were stationed?

Any thoughts on T2K deployment?

The vessel I encountered on Lake Ontario near Toronto was called the Anticosti. This was in 1994. She wasn't very big, but she had guns (20mm on the foredeck and 2 .50's on the bridge wings). She was headed North towards the St. Lawrence at a leisurely 8 knots.

[rcaf_777]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

The vessel I encountered on Lake Ontario near Toronto was called the Anticosti. This was in 1994. She wasn't very big, but she had guns (20mm on the foredeck and 2 .50's on the bridge wings). She was headed North towards the St. Lawrence at a leisurely 8 knots.

HMCS Anticosti (MSA 110) was an Anticosti-class minesweeper that served in the Canadian Forces from 1989 to 2000. Originally an oil rig support vessel, she was purchased in 1989 and saw service until the entry of the newer Kingston-class coastal defence vessels.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMCS_Anticosti_(MSA_110)

She was one of two the other being HMCS Moresby (MSA 112)

HMCS Moresby (MSA 112)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMCS_Moresby_(MSA_112)

[rcaf_777]

Originally Posted by kalos72

rcaf_77 - Do you know the names/classes and where they were stationed?

Any thoughts on T2K deployment?

Which ships are you talking about? the Bay and Porte Class?

[Legbreaker]

Given the inaccessibility of the lakes to Pact naval forces, it would seem almost impossible for any armed military vessel to remain there during the war. Icebreakers, rescue vessels and the like sure, but nothing with anything heavier than a machinegun or two I'd think. All the bigger, more militarily capable vessels would surely be better utilised where there's an actual threat.

[WallShadow]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Given the inaccessibility of the lakes to Pact naval forces, it would seem almost impossible for any armed military vessel to remain there during the war. Icebreakers, rescue vessels and the like sure, but nothing with anything heavier than a machinegun or two I'd think. All the bigger, more militarily capable vessels would surely be better utilised where there's an actual threat.

Ahem.
USS Niagara, Erie, PA, armed with 4x32# carronades. Fully reconstructed and operational in 1990. Hell, even loaded with langrage (scrap iron, bolts, chain links), it would beat hell out of most modern construction on the Lakes.
http://www.flagshipniagara.org/wp-co...ifications.pdf

[kalos72]

The basis for yet another campaign hook...

In some areas, people with the correct skills weren't even enough. Yes a good mechanic might be worth his weight in gold, but one with years working on the M2 Bradley you are trying to repair is worth TEN TIMES his weight in gold.

So for things like the lock system on the Mississippi River or the ones along the Great Lakes and St lawrence Seaway, experience on those specific systems wasn't something that could be taught so the Titan Project Team needed to figure out a way to find and recruit the experienced staff it needed and then support them until the Project was kicked off.

Working on a DoD sanctioned project, even if Top Secret, Titan had access to all the information from the US Corps of Engineers regarding the US locks. They had engineering plans, technical details. Emergency Contingency Plans, everything historically that was relevant to the Project.

In addition, they had access to the personnel. Considering all the things the US Corps of Engineers were responsible for either building or maintaining by the 1990’s, they were the perfect source of skilled personnel with the perfect experiences.

In 1994, in cooperation with the Army Corps of Engineers and the DoD, Titan Enterprises recruited and organized teams of veteran engineers that would spend the next 2 years working with current USACE staff responsible for the maintenance and operation of several key USACE divisions to provide the Project with the necessary skills to continue operation and maintenance in accordance with the Project guidelines.

This “mentoring program” also extended to the Canadian agencies responsible for the Canadian side of some of the areas of key interest, although that international cooperation was less involved and happened over a much shorter time period. The results were the same, Titan having skilled, knowledgeable staff able to support all the prime areas of interest for the Project by 1996.

Copies of of relevant plans/details/schematics, spare parts and necessary tools and equipment were stockpiled for each of those locations, awaiting the staff to begin the rebuilding process.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by WallShadow

Ahem.
USS Niagara, Erie, PA, armed with 4x32# carronades. Fully reconstructed and operational in 1990. Hell, even loaded with langrage (scrap iron, bolts, chain links), it would beat hell out of most modern construction on the Lakes.
http://www.flagshipniagara.org/wp-co...ifications.pdf

Well, yes, but not exactly modern though are they... Anyone with even a hand held grenade launcher will usually have better accuracy and effective range than a ship with even the heaviest carronade. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carronade#Range

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

You're missing an "a" from the link...

Thanks for the heads up Leg. The one damned time I don't test the link!

Let's try this again.

www.flagshipniagara.org

Ok, the link works now.

Swag.