Twilight 2013 to end publication in December 2010

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Gorbag

Well, poo. This is a bummer. Does this mean I've got to hurry up and get all the sourcebook pdf's I'm lacking before they go away into the ether?

I guess the answer is yes.

[kota1342000]

DAMMIT!!!
Well, great job with Twilight 2013. In any case, you've helped keep my favorite game alive and made some interesting updates to the game world. I'm not free of criticism of certain parts of 2013 but overall I'm impressed. If 93 is closing the doors then there's good reasons for it and my only gripe is that it sucks that 93 is going away.

[helbent4]

Group,

I thought I would pass along that DriveThruRPG is bundling most or all the T2013 material. If you have ten bones (USD $10.00) left over from buying Christmas presents, you can have all the necessary material to run Reflex with your T2K game (including Tegyirus' vehicle rules).

http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/produc...s_id=64418{1}1

Tony

[Tegyrius]

Actually, I'm not aware of Keith having published the vehicle errata in anything on DriveThru. That's posted in the core book errata thread on 93GS' forums. It's also available in my unpublished manuscript for Driver's Guide: Czech Your Engine, which I've made available for free on my own site.

Still, ten bucks for setting, rules, Everytown, and five Shooter's Guides ain't a bad deal.

- C.

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

Actually, I'm not aware of Keith having published the vehicle errata in anything on DriveThru. That's posted in the core book errata thread on 93GS' forums. It's also available in my unpublished manuscript for Driver's Guide: Czech Your Engine, which I've made available for free on my own site.

- C.

Clayton,

Sorry, I meant to link your rules! They are not part of the bundle. Thanks for the correction, my mistake.

Tony

[Jason]

Originally Posted by Dog 6

imo the Background sucked so bad I wish I had saved my money. not sad to see it go tbh

The background was flawed, yes, but saying that the background ruined the whole system is just wrong. I will take a superior game system with a crappy background over a crappy system with superior background 8 days a week. I end up modding most background info in whatever games I run, anyway.

The Reflex system is far and away the best small-unit combat rules system I have ever encountered. I suggest that any T2K fan would benefit from reading them.

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by Jason

The background was flawed, yes, but saying that the background ruined the whole system is just wrong.

Jason,

I'm sure there are people that somehow don't think they're wrong in holding the opposite opinion. (If I may joke, it's good you've finally settled the debate; now we know where we stand we can all get on with our lives!) Either way, if people want to pick up the system to have a look, it's available at a reasonable price.

Tony

[Stich2.0]

Originally Posted by helbent4

Either way, if people want to pick up the system to have a look, it's available at a reasonable price.

Psst... it's also available for free.


Free!

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by Stich2.0

Psst... it's also available for free.


Free!

Stich,

Sure, now you're going to tell me there's some "magical" way to download movies and music to your computer without paying for it either, using some kind of electronic medium. Heresy!

If you live in Canada, you can download the core rules for free legally (or for that matter, anything else as long as you don't resell it) but not in the USA. When locating pirated copies of T2013 on a file-sharing site, I tend to find that not a lot of the supplemental material is available or conveniently bundled together.

Like many things in life, I could be mistaken!

Tony

[Mohoender]

Late to give an opinion but...

Originally Posted by Mahatatain

I think that it is sad that T2013 has ceased but I think that some decisions were made by 93 Games Studio that made the success of the game unlikely.

They certainly made some bad choices but we all do. They might have underestimated the task. However, I would advocate that most gamers current attitude made the success unlikely not their initial choices. Too often, we simply want too much people.

Originally Posted by Mahatatain

1. The game background is weak in places and is quite US centric. The details of the UK made me cringe and I read one comment (from an Australian) when the game was realeased that he suspected that the writers hadn't even looked at Australia on a map! It seemed to me that the game background was written for a US market without any thought to an international market as it plays heavily to US stereotype views of the rest of the world. My instant reaction as a GM therefore was that I would have to rewrite the game background or simply use the system in a different setting.

As it was the case with the initial game. However, I would agree with the idea on the map. However, for my parts, I'm not even sure that most americans even know what a map is (and this is spreading fast to Europeans). After all, while I was studying in US, a US student (senior in international political studies) told me that he whished to drive down to Germany (we were in Vermont!!). Of course, you still can drive through Canada, the Behring strait (provided you are in full winter with enough ice), all of Russia and Poland but that might be tricky... If we didn't have to rewrite T2... backgrounds we wouldn't be here in the first place.

Originally Posted by Mahatatain

2. There are some flaws in the combat rules (in my opinion) and that put several players I know off the game after an initial session.

Didn't go that far, with two little girls and too little available time, I always found the rules too heavy. I made the same mistake on my own game design and I'm know correcting it. I'll be reducing the character design phase from 50 to 10 pages and the rules from 20 to 4-5. Meanwhile, I'll expend the background section and edit books focused solely on background. The best in this is that it takes a couple of days to write a background while it takes a bunch of months to design the rules.

Originally Posted by Mahatatain

3. Their business model seems to focus around people purchasing pdf versions rather than actual books in most countries and that seems wrong to me. Most gamers (and the majority of T2k fans) are "older" gamers and are more likely to spend the money for a good quality hardback book (which is what they produced in some markets) rather than a pdf. None of the supplements were ever more than pdfs though (I believe).

When I was saying that we want too much. Without PDF, no RPG design is possible today. I won't do anything else, hard copy is nice but out of reach. Too expensive to make, Too expensive to send, takes too much place in your already full storage room, sending it to stores is also hell. I don't know elsewhere but, currently, in France, you only have two surviving so called rpg editors and these guys are only a bunch of incompetent lying a..h...s

Originally Posted by Mahatatain

4. They initially focussed on firearms supplements rather than sourcebooks or adventures and when they did release a sourcebook it was for their "Everytown" generic setting rather than the Czech sourcebook Tegyrius developed - http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=2355

Here is a huge mistake, I agree. In the initial exchange I had with smokewolf, he told me that they were going to develop sourcebooks on countries (I'm still waiting for it). When, I saw the sourcebook on firearms I ceased to visit 93gamestudios. I tend not to care about big guns and big guys (but that just me). Not enough on vehicles, planes, ships..., also

Originally Posted by Mahatatain

It's sad when any game fails but I think that their approach was flawed in the first place.

You too hard on this, I think. You forget one thing, when you put yourself to such a huge task, you have to make choices and assume them. Just too bad that they couldn't change path. Terminating the project is their only bad choice IMO. Put it on hold, make your money and start it all over again.

Originally Posted by Mahatatain

They seem to be nice guys however so I hope that they do well in the future. They've done more to contribute to the gaming hobby as a whole than I've ever done!

I have suspended my own game for five years (I understand personnal reasons). I restarted the distribution over last summer. The funny part is that I sold more copies in three months that any shop in 7 years. I had the same problem that they had but I'm now working at correcting them and I hope to release a new version in 2011 along with an english version (at last). The point was simple: i needed to make a living first and to organize my life (didn't I said that twice already?). I hope that 93gamestudio will be capable of doing something similar. About hard copy, if anyone wants one, no problem, just get your cash ready. It could be sold at 100$ for only 10$ in PDF.

[helbent4]

Mohender,

We should really have a separate thread that goes like, "T2013 sucks! No, T2013 is awesome, YOU suck!"

Like it or not, this is a fan forum primarily for T2K. There is going to be an orientation in that direction from many people, although the list mods like Targan have made it clear that this forum has no real or implied anti-T2013 bias. In fact there's a lot of love for T2013 out there. Many would have been satisfied simply with an update and expansion of the rules if the background was largely unchanged, thus continuing a process stretching from v1 to v2 and v2.2 . I believe I understand some of 93GS's reasons for updating the background, although of course I wasn't party to the decision-making process in the slightest.

Although .pdfs are a boon to small companies like 93GS they do pose a problem in that it's relatively easy to pirate them. One could argue that free/pirated material is really no different than leafing through a book in a game store, and that people who actually want to run or play the game seriously eventually buy the books themselves. There's probably truth to both views, but small game companies simply don't have many cheap options.

Tony

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by Stich2.0

Psst... it's also available for free.


Free!

Oh, very classy.

- C.

[Stich2.0]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

Oh, very classy.

- C.

Do you want a copy?

[Eddie]

[cavtroop]

Originally Posted by Stich2.0

Do you want a copy?

Hopefully this asshat gets banned soon.

[Stich2.0]

Originally Posted by cavtroop

Hopefully this asshat gets banned soon.

You can't win, Cavtroop. If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.

And don't call names!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111111111

I didn't do anything. Stop all the hatin.

[Raellus]

Hey guys, the mod hat is on. Keep it civil. No name calling or blatant provocations. You're free to share your opinions here as long as you do so in a mature, respectful manner.

[Eddie]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Keep it civil. No name calling or blatant provocations. You're free to share your opinions here as long as you do so in a mature, respectful manner.

So we're going to ignore illegal activity and preach good manners, instead?

I'm sure most of us, if not all, have downloaded something copyrighted, but to preach to do so in a public forum? Isn't that a little much? Especially when two of the creators of the copyrighted material are semi-frequent members of this forum...

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Eddie

I'm sure most of us, if not all, have downloaded something copyrighted, but to preach to do so in a public forum? Isn't that a little much? Especially when two of the creators of the copyrighted material are semi-frequent members of this forum...

That was one of the "blatant provocations" that I was referring to. I will have a word with the individual advocating this as well.

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by Raellus

That was one of the "blatant provocations" that I was referring to. I will have a word with the individual advocating this as well.

Rae,

Maybe Kato or someone should add this into the New Member thread? It's hard to make a hard and fast rule on what is a gentleman's agreement.

That while it's recognised that copyright violation via file sharing is a fact of life, discussion or encouragement to do so with regards to T2013 is considered bad taste in this forum. In fact, all such discussion is best left to PMs or private emails.

Tony

[Snake Eyes]

Why only 2013? Is piracy of earlier versions OK or something?

[Stich2.0]

Originally Posted by Eddie

So we're going to ignore illegal activity and preach good manners, instead?

I'm sure most of us, if not all, have downloaded something copyrighted, but to preach to do so in a public forum? Isn't that a little much? Especially when two of the creators of the copyrighted material are semi-frequent members of this forum...

I noted that there are 1,251 copies successfully downloaded from just one site. I then considered that since this forum is one of the largest online communities for this particular game I'm absolutely sure I am not the only person here who believes that information ought to be shared.

BUT! I shall stop about the illegal activity (even though I live in a country with more freedom than the actual "land of the free" and so it isn't illegal). No need to send the sheriff after me with a stern warning. I get your point and I'll just keep it under my hat.

You have my word.

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by Snake Eyes

Why only 2013? Is piracy of earlier versions OK or something?

I think so. But that's just my opinion. Some people out there are interested in the game but can't afford the money to spare on a PDF, but costs 0$ for me to duplicate. If it means helping people enjoy the game (and participate in my online game) then I won't hesitate to do so.

I'm not going to encourage others to do the same, but I'm also not going to stop either. The more people with the opportunity to experience the 1/2.2 the better I think.

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by Snake Eyes

Why only 2013? Is piracy of earlier versions OK or something?

Snake,

There's more of a hot button issue with T2103 as Tegyrius and others have worked on it, and it's a more current product. In other words it's more of a direct affront to them, personally. Not some point of abstract legal principle that isn't universal, largely given lip service where it is but otherwise mostly ignored.

Give T2013 twenty years like T2K, we'll see if anyone cares at that point about who's pirating it any more than T2K. At that point, I would welcome it if there were still a dedicated community and fan base for T2013, even if not all have paid. At least they're playing it or otherwise keeping it alive.

In the end I don't think anyone would flip if I were to mention that I just downloaded scans of all the SPI Moves magazines, S&T #1-60 and Ares magazine. Score!

Tony

[Raellus]

I think the issue with T2013 is that it's all just happened recently. The wounds are raw. Tegyrius and Keith just watched hundreds of hours of their hard work fall to pieces. They can still recoup some of their costs if people pay for the merch that they produced. This is not a cash cow. They'll be lucky if they break even. Actively undermining their efforts to recoup some of the costs on this forum is somewhat of a personal attack. That's what I don't want to see here. I'm not advocating that sort of wheeling and dealing here (I purchased both the v1.0 and v2.2 rulebooks- used- at over original cover price and I bought the original v1.0 box back in the day) but if you really must, please conduct that sort of business via PM.

As for earlier versions of T2K, the people that hold the liscenses and sell the PDFs had nothing, AFAIK, to do with the creation or sale IMO of the original T2K products. IMHO, it should all be open-source now (i.e. free), but that's not how it works. DriveThru and other "legit" sources must be making a killing selling PDFs since they cost nothing to produce. Whatever. I understand what Eddie and Snake are saying. We shouldn't be using a public forum to conduct activities that are technically illegal.

[Snake Eyes]

I guess somebody probably ought to check with Marc Miller and verify that pirating that other stuff is really OK with him. I'm sure he's cool with it. Not like there's any real money at stake.

Far Future Enterprises
1418 N Clinton Blvd
Bloomington, IL 61701 USA

Email: farfuture@gmail.com

http://www.farfuture.net

[Eddie]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Tegyrius and Keith just watched hundreds of hours of their hard work fall to pieces.

For the record, my name is on the Designed by: line as well. It's a little personal to me, too.

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by Snake Eyes

I guess somebody probably ought to check with Marc Miller and verify that pirating that other stuff is really OK with him. I'm sure he's cool with it. Not like there's any real money at stake.

Snake,

When those mugs send me the T5 I pre-paid for, we'll talk.

(Not that I really mind, of course, my dough is going towards developing their future product.)

The truth is, I don't need Marc Miller to tell me what he thinks I should download, when or for what purpose. The laws and customs of where I live are different than yours, as all ya'all would say I don't have a dog in this hunt. Besides, I think we all use some copyright material without permission, it's not the end of the world.

As for T2013, I already bought two copies with real money, I'm encouraging others to do the same if they want, and there it is. Merry Christmas to you, and to everyone!

Tony

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Before people start blaming Far Future Enterprises for anything, they should remember that it's a one-man operation. Marc Miller, by himself with a little help from family and friends. If your order is a little late, send him an email and ask what's up, it's really that easy and he's alway been very approachable in the correspondance I've had with him.

Before people start claiming places like DriveThru RPG are making a profit from old GDW products, they are an authorised distributor and their authorization comes from Marc Miller, the legitimate licence holder for those old GDW products.

Before people start spruiking free downloads for anything, they should remember that this is an international forum and in some countries what you're advocating is illegal or unethical and at times just outright insulting to the originators of that material.
It's all well and good to claim that information should be shared but when you start distributing the hard work of someone for free, you prevent those people from making any money from their legitmate efforts. Why the hell would they then want to make more material for a hobby that doesn't give them a big return for their efforts in the first place. You're not sticking your fingers up at some megalithic corporation like Ha$bro here, you're simply screwing over a very small group of people who had hoped to make some contribution to the gaming community and at least get paid for their efforts.

BAH humbug! It's the 25th of December and I hate people already
No wonder I like cats & dogs better

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by Stich2.0

Do you want a copy?

Look at your copy's title page.

Look at my sig line.

Now think long and hard about the degree of uninformed dickery you just displayed.

Originally Posted by Stich2.0

I noted that there are 1,251 copies successfully downloaded from just one site. I then considered that since this forum is one of the largest online communities for this particular game I'm absolutely sure I am not the only person here who believes that information ought to be shared.

BUT! I shall stop about the illegal activity (even though I live in a country with more freedom than the actual "land of the free" and so it isn't illegal). No need to send the sheriff after me with a stern warning. I get your point and I'll just keep it under my hat.

No, you don't even begin to get the point. But you gave us a number. Let's talk about that for a second.

The PDF you advocate pirating is currently at Gold sales ranking on DriveThruRPG, the venue that accounted for the vast majority of softcopy sales. Gold ranking means that product has sold between 501 and 1,000 copies (this isn't privileged data, BTW... the Gold ranking is on the product page and the correlation of sales to tiers is available with a little digging). So, by your data, lost sales from piracy are greater than actual softcopy sales.

1,251 copies. At $20/copy. Assuming DriveThru takes 50% of the gross (which is implausibly high - I think it's probably around 30%), that's $12,510 in lost revenue.

$12,510 in lost revenue for a one-man company that, to the best of my knowledge, is shutting down for financial reasons.

Congratulations. Your belief that information ought to be shared is a direct contributor to the demise of Keith's dream and the cessation of work on Twilight: 2013. I hope you enjoyed what you got because that's all there's going to be.

You have my word.

Don't bother. You've already shown us your idea of integrity.

- C.