Alternate British Armed Forces stuff...

[95th Rifleman]

The two biggest problems with an expansion of the Uk armed forces are money and men.

After WW2 Britain stopped being a dominant power, we steadily lost our empire and our industry and by the 90's had sod all left. Building new factories costs money that the treasury doesn't have, training and equiping new regiments costs money, upgrading the RAF costs shedload and don't get me started on the costs of rebuilding the Royal navy.

Britain is a democracy, how are you going to sell all this to the British people? We where not scared of the reds the way Americans where back in the cold war. We had our own problems with the IRA and public opinion was pretty much along the lines of let the rest of the UN deal with things, why should we get dragged into it?

Manpower is an issue aswell, the 90's where a relatively good time for the UK. The job market was on the up and we'd come out of the recession of the 80's.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

The two biggest problems with an expansion of the Uk armed forces are money and men.

After WW2 Britain stopped being a dominant power, we steadily lost our empire and our industry and by the 90's had sod all left. Building new factories costs money that the treasury doesn't have, training and equiping new regiments costs money, upgrading the RAF costs shedload and don't get me started on the costs of rebuilding the Royal navy.

Britain is a democracy, how are you going to sell all this to the British people? We where not scared of the reds the way Americans where back in the cold war. We had our own problems with the IRA and public opinion was pretty much along the lines of let the rest of the UN deal with things, why should we get dragged into it?

Manpower is an issue aswell, the 90's where a relatively good time for the UK. The job market was on the up and we'd come out of the recession of the 80's.

Completely agree with the above. IMO if you want to get a substantially expanded Army (i.e. more than than a few Battalions) you're going to have to look at some seriously out of the box thinking and / or some significant divergences from the Real World timeline to make it work. Some form of conscription in the early 90's would probably do the job from the point of view of the manpower, but I'm not sure that would be a particularly plausible option without some sort of major World event happening to justify it. Also that wouldn't address the financial issues.

[simonmark6]

When adding Gurkhas to the ORBAT, it would be useful to remember that they are a finite resource. According to my incomplete research, during the 1990s, the following armies had this sort of number of Gurkhas:

UK: c5000
India: c50000
Nepal: c 5000

That's 60000 troops from an ethnic population of 3,500,000 at best. Whilst there is great competition for places in the British Army, about 60 applicants for every position, the supply might run out if there was a massive recruitment drive, even assuming that all 60 applicants were suitable anyway.

Several battalions, maybe even a division's worth of troops, would be possible maybe but after that the recruitment might start dropping off, especially if India was increasing its forces too.

As for finding manpower for other regiments, the UK has a quota of troops from overseas used to fill its ranks. This is about 10%, if this was waived in the early Nineties and the UK had a sort of "Squaddy Windrush", you might find the manpower from the Caribbean, Fiji and several African nations. Again, there are limits to how many would join but it could fill the ranks.

If you went this route, you'd need to skew UK character creation somewhat as between 10 and 20 per cent (maybe more) would have a more exotic background language than a Celtic Fringe one. Other issues could arise depending on where these foreign troops were stationed. In Europe they might be classed as mercenaries by the Soviets and treated badly. In Africa, it might lead to more desertions when the war ground down as African born troops could decide to go home and look after their families.

Elsewhere, foreign troops could be among the most loyal as their unit would be the only home they had left.

[atiff]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Even factoring these possibilities in - and they are only possibilities - remember the Australians are going to want to retain some (probably the majority) of their troops for home defence and the entire regular New Zealand Army is currently a reinforced Brigade Group (it may have been larger in 1990)

For reference about NZ overseas commitments:

In 1991, we contributed very little manpower to the Coalition

In 1994, we contributed one company group to UNPROFOR in the former Yugoslavia (actually placed under British command)

In 2000-2002, we contributed heavily to the mission in East Timor. At peak, there were over 1,000 NZ servicemen and women in East Timor, our largest deployment since Korea. We were with our good Aussie buddies. I remember at the time in NZ it felt like everyone was going and it really stretched resources; many Territorials got called up and sent. This was of course essentially in our own back yard.

Currently, all arms, I think we have about 8,000 active personnel, with around 2,000 reserves. The army has about 4,500 active and almost all of the reserves.

[dude_uk]

It comes down to it now and is it did back then and has done since the end of the second world war: Money. Or Rather Britain's lack of it. Attempting to create further forces in the gap of 1989-1995 which the normal twilight timeline allows is to play with, is quite hard to do.

The suppression of eastern Europe uprising's and the Gulf war might get you a few battalions from a political stand point. But financial reasoning is harder to find. General Hackett in his The Third world war justifies the creation of Britain's II corps by the government not supporting the creation of channel 4.

The Sino-Soviet war probably drums up quite a few sales in the arms and aerospace industries and perhaps some more from the middle east from the Israelis and friendly Arabs but would that be enough?

Going with the Canon take on things. A Second Corps for Europe (Thereby a creating an army group) A division for the Far East (Mostly infantry), A brigade for the middle east and then a smattering of a Battalion or lower garrisons in the few remain colonial outposts is about it

MARILYN Report

What was this Louie?

[Louied]

In 1988/89 the MOD came out with the MARILYN Report "Manning And Recruitment In The Lean Years of the Nineties" forecaste the forthcoming decline in the 18-22 male demographic in the UK. Between 1990-2000 it was estimated that this demographic group would fall from 2,229,000 in 1990 to 1,788,000 in 2000, about a 19.8 % reduction if my math is correct. The report discussed how the British Army would cope with this and apparently gave some suggestions. I tried to contact the MOD, the NAM, & the PRO for a copy but apparently it's still under the 30 year rule.

[dude_uk]

Originally Posted by Louied

In 1988/89 the MOD came out with the MARILYN Report "Manning And Recruitment In The Lean Years of the Nineties"

Interesting, I think its mentioned in Antony Beevors Inside the British army. Of course two things happened. The Cold war ended and this reduced the size of the army. and also it turned out that the fears over the lack of baby making in the '70's did not materialise. How much of this was down to immigration or not improving fact checking of birth statistics, I am not sure.

What's Next on the Agenda Louie? You were working on an ORBAT?

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by dude_uk

Interesting, I think its mentioned in Antony Beevors Inside the British army. Of course two things happened. The Cold war ended and this reduced the size of the army. and also it turned out that the fears over the lack of baby making in the '70's did not materialise. How much of this was down to immigration or not improving fact checking of birth statistics, I am not sure.

What's Next on the Agenda Louie? You were working on an ORBAT?

Bear in mind the Commonwealth SOldier Programme probably helped - 10% of the British ARmy now come from this.

[Louied]

I've been tardy posting the ORBAT. Hopefully this weekend since I'll be riding out Hurricane Irene I'll have time to send the draft out. I have to thank Rainbow for all his ideas, insight, and overall outstanding help as it fleshed itself out. I am also working on the IRL ORBAT of BAOR for June 1989, with all attached TA units. I've pretty much have everything down just a matter of typing it in. The only part that might still be "in progress" is the RE section. The official history of the RE vol. XII was supposed to be out this year covering 1980-2000 but it was put back to 2012. Also planning on (in the long term) doing a lineage book on TA units from 1908-2008.

[natehale1971]

Does the British Armed Forces still recruit from the Commonwealth nations? not recuirt troops to the Canadian Army, or Austrialian Army or Kenyan Army... but recruit them for the British Army itself?

the reason I am asking, is that we know that the British recruits the Ghurkhas... couldn't the British also be using a similar program to recruit from the Commonwealth states?

Recruits would gain dual citizenship status (Citizenship from their home country and British Citizenship) for their service?

[Brother in Arms]

Rainbowsix wrote:

"Perhaps HSF troops could be issued DPM jackets with OG trousers?"

Peradua wrote:

"and puttees?"

I say bring back puttees they are the shit....They look hard core especially with the DPM uniform. They are way cooler than the gaitors the Royal marines wore during the falklands.

(Sorry thats all I have to add to this thread.)

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

Does the British Armed Forces still recruit from the Commonwealth nations? not recuirt troops to the Canadian Army, or Austrialian Army or Kenyan Army... but recruit them for the British Army itself?

the reason I am asking, is that we know that the British recruits the Ghurkhas... couldn't the British also be using a similar program to recruit from the Commonwealth states?

The recruiting numbers are capped at 10%. Raising that would be difficult.

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by Fusilier

The recruiting numbers are capped at 10%. Raising that would be difficult.

How so? what caused the capping the number at 10%?

So far this is the outline of the OOB of the British Army for what i'm doing. Divisions aren't completely manned... some might only have 2 Brigades and divisional support personnel.

I British Corps (British Army of the Rhine)
- 1st Armoured Division
- 2rd Infantry Division
- 3nd Armoured Division
II British Corps (British Army of the Rhine)
- 4th Armoured Division
- 5th Infantry Division
- 6th Division
III British Corps (British Army of the Thames)
- Home Guard Division (England)
- Home Guard Division (Scotland)
- Home Guard Division (Wales)
- Home Guard Division (Northern Ireland)
IV British Corps (British Army of the Euphrates)
- 7th Division
- 8th Division
V British Corps (British Army of the <>) Asia & Pacific Rim
- 9th Division
VI British Corps (British Army of the Nile) Africa
- 10th Division
VII British Corps (British Army of the Amazon)
- 11th Division
VIII British Corps (British Army of the Danube)
- 12th Division

[Tombot]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

Exactly... The Black Winter that saw the Soviet Forces in Eastern Europe opening a massive can of whop-ass ...

That reminded me of something:
(Since were having several british-themed threads right now)

http://www.blackwinter.freeservers.com/

(Did not check the archives on this). I liked that novel, and had some alternate stuff about BAOR, a british recongroup, and so on.
Did any of you read this, and maybe used it for a game somehow ?

I liked the notion of parts of BAOR planning their own "Going Home" from the city of Hamburg in early 2001, and expecting a hostile reception by the british army in southern england, because BAOR didnt retreat early, as ordered before.

[natehale1971]

I loved it. It gave me the inspiration to star myown T2k novella.

[Louied]

Agree with Fusilier, not likely to raise the cap in peacetime. I believe the main reasons are that it would seem to be an army of "mercenaries" & it would let the government be more inclined to use the army when the troops & their families are not voters !!!
However once the balloon goes up all bets are off. If you read any of Patrick Delaforce's books you see that the British Army had many other nationalities. IIRC some that spring to mind are an American who enlisted in 1940 that was an Officer in the Hant's by '44. A number of Belgians in Bn.'S of the KRRC & RB. What really struck me was what seemed a whole Recce Plt. Of Eastern Europeans (I forgot which regiment).
As for the Commonwealth Rhodesian, South African, Australian, & New Zealanders served in RAF squadrons. While Irish from the Republic enlisted in their thousands for all 3 services.
Besides remember a couple of years ago when the POW suggested a Sikh regiment but was shot down by the PC crowd.

[Tombot]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

I loved it. It gave me the inspiration to star myown T2k novella.

Thats cool Nate. When is it done ? Come on man, show it - and bring some of your
art along, as well! (Wanna read more good T2k stuff!)

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

Does the British Armed Forces still recruit from the Commonwealth nations? not recuirt troops to the Canadian Army, or Austrialian Army or Kenyan Army... but recruit them for the British Army itself?

the reason I am asking, is that we know that the British recruits the Ghurkhas... couldn't the British also be using a similar program to recruit from the Commonwealth states?

Recruits would gain dual citizenship status (Citizenship from their home country and British Citizenship) for their service?

Quick answer: No
The Ghurkas are a special case, it's a hold-over from the days of the British East India Company and just as much a reward for Ghurka loyalty as it is for any military benefit to the UK.

As I understand it, the UK does not actively seek recruits from former British Commonwealth nations but they are not discouraged from applying.
Any personnel recruited from Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Fiji, Kenya, Hong Kong or any other former British Empire nation/protectorate for the British military would join as a member of the British forces but as individuals joining the British military, not as large groups and certainly not as distinct units like the Ghurkas do.

Like New Zealand, Australia would be very unlikely to take over from British Far East and Near East formations. We simply do not have the manpower.
We had less than 20 million people as of 2006 for a standing army of approximately 30,000 personnel with approximately 17,000 reservists. So from that 47,000 you're probably realistically looking at approximately 12,000 actual combat personnel.

Unless there was a direct (and directly Australian) military/political need for Australian forces to relieve British forces in the Far East/Near East, it would be highly unlikely to occur no matter what else was happening on the world stage - we have too small a military with too large a country and too small a population for raising the taxes required for such an expansion.

Recruiting to enlarge the military would face all the problems that are being discussed for the British military in this thread but Australia faces a worse situation because we have a far larger country to cover and one of the longest coastlines of any nation on the planet (we're ranked 7th in the world being beaten by Japan, the Philippines, Russia, Greenland, Indonesia and Canada in the number one position).

A lot of our revenue is raised from exports. Once worldwide trade is impacted by a global war and we can no longer safely make money from shipping goods to other countries, we would have drastically less money available for enlarging our military.

The military could be enlarged by aggressive recruiting but like any Western nation, there are too many needs for personnel in civilian occupations and so the recruit base is going to be very small to start with and funding would have to come from elsewhere in the budget, something certain to make it unpopular with the civilian population. And with less money available we would have even less chance to build up the higher tech side of the military e.g. armoured, air defence and so on.

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

How so? what caused the capping the number at 10%?

In addition to the good answers given above, I think it also has to do with foreign employment. All governments are like this. I mean just the other day I was reading how people were upset that Obama was driving around in custom bus that was manufactured in Canada. Why employ foreigners when people at home live on welfare and can't get a job? I think some criticism would come from that angle.

Checking into it, another reason seems to be people worried about diluting the military, and thus potentially endangering the customs and traditions of the service. It can also be see as embarrassing - "We need foreigners to man our ranks" kinda deal.

And finally, in my experience, the idea of arming foreigners is the last thing a government allows (impossible for people without citizenship to own firearms for example). This mostly applies to civilians, but I think it can extend to the military as well.

I guess my point is, it would be a hard sell by politicians who want to be reelected to deal with the many criticisms of opening up the military to foreigners.

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by Fusilier

In addition to the good answers given above, I think it also has to do with foreign employment. All governments are like this. I mean just the other day I was reading how people were upset that Obama was driving around in custom bus that was manufactured in Canada. Why employ foreigners when people at home live on welfare and can't get a job? I think some criticism would come from that angle.

Checking into it, another reason seems to be people worried about diluting the military, and thus potentially endangering the customs and traditions of the service. It can also be see as embarrassing - "We need foreigners to man our ranks" kinda deal.

And finally, in my experience, the idea of arming foreigners is the last thing a government allows (impossible for people without citizenship to own firearms for example). This mostly applies to civilians, but I think it can extend to the military as well.

I guess my point is, it would be a hard sell by politicians who want to be reelected to deal with the many criticisms of opening up the military to foreigners.

I plan to include a large number of Irish nationals that travel north to join the British Army who are in a huge moral dilemma when the South invades the North... Those in the UK are likely to be interred but those in Germany (or further afield) may have the option of still fighting.

[dude_uk]

Originally Posted by Louied

I've been tardy posting the ORBAT. Hopefully this weekend since I'll be riding out Hurricane Irene I'll have time to send the draft out. I have to thank Rainbow for all his ideas, insight, and overall outstanding help as it fleshed itself out. I am also working on the IRL ORBAT of BAOR for June 1989, with all attached TA units. I've pretty much have everything down just a matter of typing it in. The only part that might still be "in progress" is the RE section. The official history of the RE vol. XII was supposed to be out this year covering 1980-2000 but it was put back to 2012. Also planning on (in the long term) doing a lineage book on TA units from 1908-2008.

A complete UK ORBAT for twilight? Will it Include all those hard to find support units pre options? I shall look forward to this coming bank holiday weekend.

I am still working on my complete UK ORBAT for June 1997 amongst other things.Doing the artillery at the moment and trying to work out if i get away without raising any more artillery units.

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by dude_uk

A complete UK ORBAT for twilight? Will it Include all those hard to find support units pre options? I shall look forward to this coming bank holiday weekend.

I am still working on my complete UK ORBAT for June 1997 amongst other things.Doing the artillery at the moment and trying to work out if i get away without raising any more artillery units.

Great minds think alike, still working on mine...

Currently I have it at January 2001 before I start amalgamating and re-rolling units.

Can anyone see any new niches for units? I have converted some units to NBC and added rehabilitation and demobilization units.

[natehale1971]

With how bad things are... demobilization might not be the best course of action right away. From what i've been told, Regiments in the British Army are drawn from various UK regions. Having these units 'garrisoning' their home town areas might allow for the reconstruction to go much faster with more central planning.

[dude_uk]

Originally Posted by James Langham

Can anyone see any new niches for units? I have converted some units to NBC and added rehabilitation and demobilization units.

Training cadres? Regiments becoming responsible for own their own training?

Certain areas are going to need garrisons.

But of course the main thing once you have pacified all the marauders, outlaws and 'false presidents' is having them helping in the fields to bring the harvest in. Or would the army be exempt to keep morale high?.

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

With how bad things are... demobilization might not be the best course of action right away. From what i've been told, Regiments in the British Army are drawn from various UK regions. Having these units 'garrisoning' their home town areas might allow for the reconstruction to go much faster with more central planning.

Being realistic, can the UK afford all of the troops? Certain units are not going to be necessary - electronic warfare, much of the artillery, air defence and heavy artillery for example. Also many service personnel are going to be unfit for service (blinded, missing limbs, etc) - these can be demobilized into jobs they are capable of. Some servicemen/women can also be converted into civil servants.

How many troops do you really need? Until you reach Scotland (and possibly Wales) you are not going to meet significant conventional forces. A better model might be part time soldiers protecting their local area behind your borders with rapid response troops (similar to the late Roman Empire). I would also guess that non-violent methods would be the preferred option for reunification (e.g. trade, bribery (e.g. well if you join us we will need an MP until we can sort elections...), better standards of living). Very much the Roman or ink blot methods of gaining control.

Whilst at the start of the war troops would be very tied to locations, after four years of war this will be FAR less important when assigning troops (compare 1917 and 1944).

It helps that I partially envisage a Roman type demobilization - here's your land now go farm and protect it...

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by James Langham

Great minds think alike, still working on mine...

Currently I have it at January 2001 before I start amalgamating and re-rolling units.

Can anyone see any new niches for units? I have converted some units to NBC and added rehabilitation and demobilization units.

REME and Signals bods could be formed into salvage teams...so could surplus RAF and RN personnel.

Pioneer Corps would probably need to be expanded as well...

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by James Langham

Until you reach Scotland (and possibly Wales) you are not going to meet significant conventional forces...

Unless the Scots and the Welsh form a Celtic alliance and invade England first...

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Unless the Scots and the Welsh form a Celtic alliance and invade England first...

Being Welsh... :-)

Not enough troops to do it (even with the Welsh having the Gurkha Coy from Brecon - that may confuse a few characters when they meet them!).

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

REME and Signals bods could be formed into salvage teams...so could surplus RAF and RN personnel.

Pioneer Corps would probably need to be expanded as well...

There is (or at least was) actually a REME unit with salvage in mind - I have expanded this.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by James Langham

Being Welsh... :-)

Not enough troops to do it (even with the Welsh having the Gurkha Coy from Brecon - that may confuse a few characters when they meet them!).

Cymru am Byth...