49th Armoured Division

[Olefin]

If the train network in Poland, a country that has been fought over by armies for four years by multiple armies and nuked a lot more intensively than the US was, plus literally thousands of conventional air strikes, was intact enough for a party of player characters to take a train across half the country a few weeks then MilGov can get trains to OK from Norfolk easily enough.

Or you can take ships to LA and then go from there overland easily enough, even if the reinforcments originally particpated in the Ozark operation and then went on from there to OK with New America out of the way.

Or they could have gone by train to Chicago and then from there followed the same path that the 400 guys sent by the 194th followed to get to Louisiana.

Or per the Ozarks module they could have gone to Memphis and then by road convoy to the 49th.

Sorry Leg but your arguments dont work here.

If they can reinforce the 85th from units in IL and Norfolk they can reinforce the 49th.

Oh and any ship that is carrying cargo can carry a lot of men - and the ships described in Red Star, Lone Star could clearly carry a lot of men. These arent fishing boats, they are freighters. If you can carry freight you can carry hundreds of men in its place.


And the 49th being out of communication as to them needing reinforcements is non-sensical. Especially considering the location of that division relative to the Colorado HQ and the fact that the division is providing fuel to the entire Midwest and Plains states.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Sorry Leg but your arguments dont work here.

May I suggest reading this before opening your mouth?
http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=3130
Shifting people around has been discussed at great length before now and I'm not the only one who sees problems which can't be solved by waving a magic wand and simply wishing.

[Webstral]

I want to address two items: the identifiable need for reinforcements for 49th AD and the assignment of available Operation Omega troops by rational means (as opposed to catch-as-catch-can).

As of 01 JUL 00, 49th AD disposes 3000 troops and 23 tanks and light tanks. (I just can’t bring myself to misuse the term “AFV”) The division is at something like 20% of its authorized manpower, although reductions in the number of uniformed support personnel probably place its infantry strength at a higher level. I don’t think there’s any question that the division needs reinforcements badly. Every formation in CONUS and Alaska needs reinforcements badly.

The command and staff running the CONUS side of Operation Omega are challenged to distribute the returning troops without knowing how many actually will return. As Legbreaker points out, not everyone who shows up in Bremerhaven is going to be available for dispatch as replacements. Nonetheless, Colorado Springs is going to want to have some system in place to distribute the troops who become available based on needs and feasibility.

Were I an operations staffer in Colorado Springs (in which case Milgov would be in genuinely dire straits), I would use a variation on a risk management matrix to help the bosses decide where Operation Omega troops should go. The vertical axis would be priority, and the highest value would be at the top of the column. The horizontal axis would be feasibility, and the highest value would be on the right side. Highest priority and highest feasibility would be found in the upper right of the matrix, while lowest priority and lowest feasibility would be at the bottom left. The most available troops would go to units located in the upper right. No one would go to units located in the bottom left. (If Fort Huachuca even appeared on such a matrix, it would be tucked into the bottom left corner of the graph.)

Units of Fifth US Army probably would be assigned high priority ratings because they are located along or near the Mississippi Watershed, the value of which I believe has been fairly well established. Although 90th US Corps is located well west of the Mississippi, a functional lock system along the Arkansas River will allow barge traffic to continue to move as far west as Tulsa. Since 90th US Corps is protecting the oil assets of Oklahoma, it seems reasonable to assume that the component formations of the corps will have a high priority rating. Units of First US Army probably would not receive uniformly high priority ratings. For instance, 49th MP Brigade isn’t protecting anything important in western Massachusetts. Sure, it would be nice to control the Connecticut River for transport and agriculture, but nothing in New England measures up against the resource base of the Mississippi Basin.

Feasibility is another matter entirely. One can debate whether 78th ID is going to receive a high priority rating, but it’s got to be at the top of the list for feasibility. 100th ID in Colorado is at best middlin’ until the airships underpinning Operation Manifest Destiny become available. (I seldom forego an opportunity to plug for my own work.) Sixth US Army is only surpassed in terms of infeasibility by Ninth US Army.

The question really is whether the high feasibility of using Operation Omega troops to reinforce Milgov cantonments on the East Coast outweighs the high priority of using them to reinforce Fifth US Army in the all-important heartland. Obviously, this is not an all-or-nothing prospect. However, the matrix can help generate a ratio for the available troops; for example, 40% of the available troops will go to First US Army, while the rest go to Fifth US Army.

[Olefin]

very good and reasoned argument Webstral

and a lot better than the usual "the canon doesnt say so" that I hear so often

and also good to see that its not just me who thinks that MilGov would be rational when it comes to reinforcements and give some to the units that are protecting resources that even HW says are critical to their ability to survive

not too smart of any general to say these assets are super critical - and then not send them any men when they are available and available in large numbers

(i.e. 28000 men is a lot of men available to reinforce units that have 3000 left and are guarding critical cannot lose resources)

[LAW0306]

OLEFIN welcome to the dark side of the force. Check in with chico to draw weapons and Jason wiser for an intel dump.

[Olefin]

Intel already received when I first came here but thanks for the info LAW.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by James Langham

Thanks, that is REALLY useful info, exactly the sort of info i need, bits will make it into the next draft. Do you want a fictional mention?

Are the unit designations right? It is a mix of different sources and a couple of educated guesses.

The unit designations are correct as I remember them.

At Annual Drills, we spent the better part of week simply trying to weld 1st Battalion back into an integrated unit. Even so, the "outlyers" (as we called them) had their ways of doing things, some of which were non-SOP. So you use that, instead of turning the Drill into Basic Training. Bravo and Charlie were used to operating alone, and they made outstanding scouts when you couldn't get the Scout Platoon to be assigned to a recon for you.

[Legbreaker]

We had a similar situation in the reserve units I was in. Platoons and companies tended to be able to work well enough with only a few days to a couple of weeks of training, but pulling anything more together was a long and intensive process of months.
The larger the formation, no matter what nationality it is, the longer it would take to get operational as a large unit. Elements should be able to operate effectively fairly quickly though, provided the individual soldiers knew their jobs and the small units of platoon and companies had been able to train fairly regularly in peacetime.

[Webstral]

Don't get me started on the inadequacies of the US reserve system to keep combat units in fighting trim. Don't get me started. Don't do it.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Webstral

Don't get me started on the inadequacies of the US reserve system to keep combat units in fighting trim. Don't get me started. Don't do it.

*Poke* *poke*
Go on, do it. you know you want too!

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

*Poke* *poke*
Go on, do it. you know you want too!

Leg, there are times when I think you were born with a pot stirrer in your hand. For now, I must resist. I have been assigned a critical mission by my better half: clear off the desk in the office and put all that [expletive deleted] Twilight: 2000 stuff away!

[James Langham]

I've tried to resolve the replacement issue now and added a few quotes.

[Olefin]

very nice additions - makes it an even better final product. Even though I dont agree with the final result as per HW, the additions you have made really bring the era of late 2000 to early 2001 to life. It does represent an attempt to explain a canonical event that I dont agree with but as always canon is what you make of it.

And for those who choose to stay to that canon what you have done is really bring the division and its history to life.

I would make one suggestion. Since it is written as a historical document you may want to extend it out and suggest a possible future for the unit. As mentioned eventually the unit has the BMP as a museum piece at its HQ at Fort Sill. Thus it doesnt die but continues and eventually survives as a division. That story would be a an excellent addition to what you have written.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Webstral

For now, I must resist. I have been assigned a critical mission by my better half: clear off the desk in the office and put all that [expletive deleted] Twilight: 2000 stuff away!

Ah, that is a critical task. Essential to continued survival even given the source of the orders!

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by Olefin

very nice additions - makes it an even better final product. Even though I dont agree with the final result as per HW, the additions you have made really bring the era of late 2000 to early 2001 to life. It does represent an attempt to explain a canonical event that I dont agree with but as always canon is what you make of it.

And for those who choose to stay to that canon what you have done is really bring the division and its history to life.

I would make one suggestion. Since it is written as a historical document you may want to extend it out and suggest a possible future for the unit. As mentioned eventually the unit has the BMP as a museum piece at its HQ at Fort Sill. Thus it doesnt die but continues and eventually survives as a division. That story would be a an excellent addition to what you have written.

Thanks, I haven't finished with the document yet but haven't fully worked out the future of the 49th. Personally I see it withering away leaving a headquarters made up of the command staff and little else (which is operating under greater and greater delusions) but I can be persuaded to do things differently.

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by James Langham

Thanks, I haven't finished with the document yet but haven't fully worked out the future of the 49th. Personally I see it withering away leaving a headquarters made up of the command staff and little else (which is operating under greater and greater delusions) but I can be persuaded to do things differently.

Eventually I think it will get its act back together: If one goes by what 2300's timeline says about Texas, for the 49th would play a huge role in it.

[Olefin]

I dont see it being reduced to just a deluded HQ. For one it clearly says the division fights for several years after the BMP joins them in 1999. That clearly shows a division with a least some fighting capability beyond that of a mere HQ cadre for several yeas to come.

[Webstral]

At long last, I've taken the time to really look at your work on the 49th Armored Division, James.

I love the effort that went into showing pre-war and post-Exchange TO&E (table of organization and equipment) for 49th AD. Great effort! I’m especially appreciate that you made an obvious effort to tie the post-Exchange TO&E in with the tanks listed as belonging to 49th AD in the US Army Vehicle Guide. You did a good job explaining the presence of M1 and M2 in the division, too.

I appreciate as well the presence of USAF and Dept of Energy crews and fighting vehicles in the division. Good creativity! I notice that by early 1999 the surviving LAV75 appear to have been concentrated in the new divisional cavalry squadron.

Maneuver battalions and artillery battalions are listed with hyphens between the battalion number and the parent regiment instead of slashes: 1-184 IN for 1st Battalion of the 184th Infantry Regiment, 4-64 AR for 4th Battalion of the 64th Armored Regiment, and 3-78 FA for 3rd Battalion of the 78th Field Artillery Regiment. Companies within the battalion are separated from the battalion number with a slash; B/1-18 IN for Bravo Company, 1st Battalion of the 184th Infantry Regiment.

To make matters more confusing, most battalions in the US Army do not follow the same nomenclature system as the maneuver battalions. I served in the 4th Engineer Battalion (Mech). No fancy numbering or anything.

The School Brigade TO&E for late August 1998 is good but could stand a tweak or two. By the time the brigade has been assigned to front-line combat duty with 49th AD, the corps commander will have transferred the battalion to his command. The Patriots can’t do anything useful at the brigade level, given that the School Brigade is entering front-line combat. Also, make some note of the fact that the infantry battalions and ADA battalions will be exchanging companies to make heavy machine gun or autocannon company teams. While any half-informed reader will assume that the armored and infantry battalions are forming combined arms task forces, it may not be as obvious that the ADA battalions and the infantry are doing the same thing, since there is no doctrine for using ADA and infantry in a combined arms role. Otherwise, the School Brigade TO&E looks good. Transferring 1-124 CAV from the 49th AD is a nice touch.

The loss of 1600 replacements en route from Virginia is painful. It’s also very Twilight: 2000. Good one!

The list of commanding generals is a nice creative gesture. Again, I like the attention to detail that goes into this sort of thing.

A very, very nice bit of work, James!

[James Langham]

Latest version. unusually for me it is quite pessimistic. As ever comments welcome.

[Rainbow Six]

James, great article. I particularly enjoyed the part at the end where you detailed some of the Division's notable members. One minor point - dates don't tally in Major Turner's bio - think you might have a typo in the date of his death (Jan 01 - should this be Jan 02?)

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

James, great article. I particularly enjoyed the part at the end where you detailed some of the Division's notable members. One minor point - dates don't tally in Major Turner's bio - think you might have a typo in the date of his death (Jan 01 - should this be Jan 02?)

It should indeed by 02

[Webstral]

That is bleak.

[pmulcahy11b]

I know there's no real justification for it, but I'm not only a San Antonian and Texan, but I'm a former member of 1/141. I can't see the 49th just disintegrating like that. Like I said in an earlier post, The 49th can make a mess out of a unit that underestimates them -- we made messes out of visiting National Guard units, Air Force Defenders, and even active duty units. Cohesion may come a bit slowly, my guess is that by 1997, they will be operating in sync.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Cohesion may come a bit slowly, my guess is that by 1997, they will be operating in sync.

Arrrrrgh! Oh wait, not the boy band. My bad.

[Olefin]

I have to agree with pmulcahy11b - we know that the 49th survives with at least the BMP-C mentioned in the Soviet Vehicle Guide for several years after 1999 so your final entry of the division being folded into another division is a little too pessimistic in my opinion.

One thing you may want to think about is posssibly would the 49th members who left possibly join up with the South Texas Grange forces mentioned in Red Star, Lone Star? I.e. instead of just dispersing in dribs and drabs to their homes would they have joined up with the nascent Texas Republic as an organized military unit, but not one under US MilGov control?

In other words not deserting or going over the hill but deciding that they are Texas units and should be fighting for Texas and not for the US? Perhaps not everyone but a substantial force of them, especially if that force starts to win ground against the Texians or Mexicans with the oil that the South Texas Grange now has available?

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by Olefin

I have to agree with pmulcahy11b - we know that the 49th survives with at least the BMP-C mentioned in the Soviet Vehicle Guide for several years after 1999 so your final entry of the division being folded into another division is a little too pessimistic in my opinion.

One thing you may want to think about is posssibly would the 49th members who left possibly join up with the South Texas Grange forces mentioned in Red Star, Lone Star? I.e. instead of just dispersing in dribs and drabs to their homes would they have joined up with the nascent Texas Republic as an organized military unit, but not one under US MilGov control?

In other words not deserting or going over the hill but deciding that they are Texas units and should be fighting for Texas and not for the US? Perhaps not everyone but a substantial force of them, especially if that force starts to win ground against the Texians or Mexicans with the oil that the South Texas Grange now has available?

Ive tried not to mention the possibility of the South Texas Grange as I can't decide which way to go with them. I think really they need to be considered for each campaign. 2300 has Texas under Mexican control but Red Star, Lone Star implies they may succeed so I try to leave things like that open. I may well add a note that some operate with the Kingsleys. Texas might well use the 49th as a division for the historical precedent.

[Olefin]

You are right in the implication -i.e. the very strong implication that Kingsley would be the first president of a Lone Star Republic is a huge hint that maybe they rethought the "Texas is part of Mexico" part of 2300.

Also remember that you could have Texas possibly broken into multiple areas - i.e. an area that stays with the US as Texas but is much smaller than before (say northern Texas) , another that is taken over by Mexico (the area below San Antonio for instance but not along the Gulf Coast where the refinery was) and a third area that becomes the Republic of Texas - all very much Texas but none of them being the Texas that we know now.

You could even end up with rival 49th Divisions - one being in Texas and one being in the US.

[kalos72]

Side note of sorts:

Where can I find the background story your talking about for Texas and 2300AD? What book or article?

[Targan]

Originally Posted by James Langham

2300 has Texas under Mexican control...

It does? Which version? The original Traveller:2300 I have has Texas as an independent republic for hundreds of years after the Twilight War.

[Webstral]

The Earth-Cybertech Sourcebook also lists Texas as an independent republic.