The value of Precious Stones

[natehale1971]

Hello everyone,

I have been looking over a few things as reference, and haven't been able to find the kind of information about Precious Stones that I have been able to find about precious metals and I need some help... So I'm asking you guys for help on this.

I know that when it comes to precious stones, black market and smugglers use diamonds since they where so very hard to trace or find out where they originated form (well, until they started putting those microscopic size serial numbers on them to counter the use of blood diamonds).

How are precious stones priced? I know that metals are priced by weight. But I haven't been able to figure out how they price precious stones. So I have asked here and on a T2k mailing list for anyone's help on figuring this out?

Also, does anyone know how much Platinium and Palladium are worth?

I know value of precious metals are Platinium, Gold, Palladium, and then Silver. How about precious stones?

[copeab]

I'm not that sure that precious metals or stones are going to be worth that much in T2K. The primary reason they are used as currency is because they have little real vale otherwise. You can't fire gold from a gun, eat or drink gold, or use use gold to fuel your generator. Ten kilos of gold is just shiny metal; ten kilos of lead can at least be used to make bullets.

(this is a long way of saying that I think in 2000 you will see mostly barter)

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by copeab

I'm not that sure that precious metals or stones are going to be worth that much in T2K. The primary reason they are used as currency is because they have little real vale otherwise. You can't fire gold from a gun, eat or drink gold, or use use gold to fuel your generator. Ten kilos of gold is just shiny metal; ten kilos of lead can at least be used to make bullets.

(this is a long way of saying that I think in 2000 you will see mostly barter)

Very true, but even in such a situation people would still be desiring such items (even dollars might still be seen of value in some areas). There were alot of people complaining about the use of dollars in Romero's zomibe movie 'Land of the Dead'... but something has value if anyone has a desire to own or pocess it (thus why we call them precious metals and stones).

Value exists in what someone is willing to give you for it. Now I really do agree that metals like lead and steel (gunpowder and brass cartridges for that matter) would be worth alot more than any precious metals and/or stones we still have to realize that there are others out there who place more value on other items and make them more valuable than we'd expect (thus why Gold and Silver prices increase when cash currencies decline). Hell, fuel would be worth alot more than anything else in a post-apoc setting as we saw in Road Warrior and Beyond the Thunderdome since production would be nearly impossible.

But we humans are very strange that way we desire in what we desire to pocess.

But everything has to have something to measure itself upon. It's one of the reasons why people didn't understand the d20 Modern use of Wealth checks (or purchase checks) instead of monatary values. But people had/have such a hard time using the Wealth check system, we had to come up with monetary values for 'extras' that our characters would have while using the wealth system for the more mudane things they would already pocess.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

The problem with precious stones is that the vast majority of people don't know what they are actually worth and most of us don't even know what stones are really gemstones without some sort of reference book. Diamonds are vastly overvalued and are intrinsically worthless to the average person, I believe the same would apply to any gemstones in the post-apocalypse world.

As for precious metals, platinum and palladium are so rare in the marketplace that it is highly unlikely most people will ever deal with them except as jewellery. Even then, most people have no clear idea of how much they are worth so I doubt many people would accept these metals in trade if for no other reason than the fact that most people would not even recognize them for what they are when they saw them. In fact, platinum is not even sold to the average person off the street and in nearly every 1st World nation, someone trying to buy/sell it without a legitimate dealer's licence is going to be investigated by the police (I have a friend who works in the mining industry, platinum is such a controlled metal that the company he works for requires a licence to possess a minor amount of platinum)

Gold and silver are very different, easier to mine and refine and almost universally recognized as gold or silver. Both can be valued reasonably accurately by simply weighing them as they should both be about 99% purity when cast into ingots. The other metals are much harder to judge because who really knows the weight expected from an ingot of pure palladium except for an expert or metallurgist?
But I do believe their value will be based entirely on whether someone is prepared to accept them as trade because they will be hoping (indeed, "banking" on the idea) that the money market will re-establish itself and the gold/silver will be worth something in the future.

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

The problem with precious stones is that the vast majority of people don't know what they are actually worth and most of us don't even know what stones are really gemstones without some sort of reference book. Diamonds are vastly overvalued and are intrinsically worthless to the average person, I believe the same would apply to any gemstones in the post-apocalypse world.

As for precious metals, platinum and palladium are so rare in the marketplace that it is highly unlikely most people will ever deal with them except as jewellery. Even then, most people have no clear idea of how much they are worth so I doubt many people would accept these metals in trade if for no other reason than the fact that most people would not even recognize them for what they are when they saw them. In fact, platinum is not even sold to the average person off the street and in nearly every 1st World nation, someone trying to buy/sell it without a legitimate dealer's licence is going to be investigated by the police (I have a friend who works in the mining industry, platinum is such a controlled metal that the company he works for requires a licence to possess a minor amount of platinum)

Gold and silver are very different, easier to mine and refine and almost universally recognized as gold or silver. Both can be valued reasonably accurately by simply weighing them as they should both be about 99% purity when cast into ingots. The other metals are much harder to judge because who really knows the weight expected from an ingot of pure palladium except for an expert or metallurgist?

But I do believe their value will be based entirely on whether someone is prepared to accept them as trade because they will be hoping (indeed, "banking" on the idea) that the money market will re-establish itself and the gold/silver will be worth something in the future.

Thank you! I didn't know platinium was such a monitored and controlled precious metal. But it'd make a damn good plot hook (a government vault full of the stuff could be really good if set in continental US with the MilGov/CivGov/New America race to get it)!

I have only asked about the diamonds since it was so popular with blackmarketers and smugglers, and since most of the economy for major equipment would be under control by those types of pople I was wondering just how much they would be worth...

How do others handle them in their games? just handwave what the diamonds are worth and go with that? because that is what i'm really leaning towards at the moment.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by copeab

I'm not that sure that precious metals or stones are going to be worth that much in T2K. The primary reason they are used as currency is because they have little real vale otherwise. You can't fire gold from a gun, eat or drink gold, or use use gold to fuel your generator. Ten kilos of gold is just shiny metal; ten kilos of lead can at least be used to make bullets.

This may sound a bit pedantic but as gold has very similar properties to lead I'm certain you could use gold in place of lead to make bullets. I understand the point you are making but in this case gold isn't a very good example. You could also use gold for solder when making electronic repairs (in the unlikely event that a T2K character has the ability to make repairs to circuit boards or even any such equipment to repair).

[copeab]

Originally Posted by Targan

This may sound a bit pedantic but as gold has very similar properties to lead I'm certain you could use gold in place of lead to make bullets. I understand the point you are making but in this case gold isn't a very good example. You could also use gold for solder when making electronic repairs (in the unlikely event that a T2K character has the ability to make repairs to circuit boards or even any such equipment to repair).

I didn't want to use silver, 'cause in some campaigns silver bullets may be useful ...

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Well I suppose what we are really talking about is just how useful is the material to the survivors? Like Copeab mentioned, lead is going to be more in demand than say gold but the important question is why and the answer is although you can make bullets out of gold like you can with lead (or indeed any suitable metal), lead is easier to work with and is found in greater abundance.
Lead is used as sheeting for rooftops and gutters, it can be formed into pipes, bowls and other implements whereas gold is much less useful for such things (sure there's the lead poisoning bit but you get my meaning) You'd probably want to keep the gold for soldering or electrical repairs like Targan mentioned.

I think the same thing applies to the gemstones, if I'm going to trade 20 rounds of .44Magnum, a thick wool jumper and two MREs with you, I want something useful in return and I mean immediately useful like rifle ammunition or directions to the closest trading town or alcohol for my generator. To paraphrase Copeab again, I can't eat a handful of rubies, assuming I'm even skilled enough to recognize them as rubies.

These items i.e. precious stones/metals are really only coveted because someone likes the look of them, they're pretty and because they're in demand for such vanity purposes, they become valuable. Gold is good for backing up currency but only because people believe gold is valuable. It's only valuable because it is relatively rare and people want to own it. I think for most people in the immediate aftermath, gold coins/ingots etc. may possibly retain the belief in their value but I don't think many people will see gemstones in the same manner, they'll just be pretty stones.

[headquarters]

for bullets ?

hehe

I hear it has great density and is very mallable.

Gold bullets - no there is a weapon to show fire superiority ...

Other than that I agree with those who say that precious metal and stones are precious only as long as there is a need/market .

i.e the agreed price / trust in the market price disappears for such items as foodstuff become more important and expensive .

Once pickles start to look more tempting than teh same weight of gems its lost its value...

yes- I read that in a nobel discertation on economics

[Ironside]

I think gold and silver is still going to have value (in certain places), as a medium of exchange. In the free city of Krakow or other places where 'normal' trade still goes on, gold and silver have an agreed-upon value and are still useful. Some merchants who have dealings with such places would still value it.

It really depends on local conditions I guess.

I think that there is going to be some demand for jewellery; after all, even your average psycopathic warlord is going to want some to hang on their significant other to demonstrate their power and wealth.

[Mohoender]

I'm going a bit away from precious stones/metals but I would expect seashelves to retake their full place as currency in Africa. I would also expect salt to become again one of the most precious stone in many places.

If it goes to precious metals, I don't think gold will remain valuable for long (except for jewelry) as there is not enough gold and it is almost useless outside of a stock exchange system. As it was the case up to the 19th century it will more possibly be replaced by silver and copper.

Just a simple question: how many people hold some significant amount of gold?
Still today, about every family (extended ones I mean) hold some silver dishes (plain or not), some brass or copper piece of arts...

One last thing. I would also expect steel to quickly become highly valuable.

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

These items i.e. precious stones/metals are really only coveted because someone likes the look of them, they're pretty and because they're in demand for such vanity purposes, they become valuable. I think for most people in the immediate aftermath, gold coins/ingots etc. may possibly retain the belief in their value but I don't think many people will see gemstones in the same manner, they'll just be pretty stones.

I think diamonds would be useful and in trade, especially in the larger organized cities and regions. In today's world, over 80% of diamonds are used not for vanity, but for industrial purposes. Cutting, abrasives, heat conductors, drilling, electronics, etc.

Originally Posted by Mohoender

I would also expect salt to become again one of the most precious stone in many places.

Salt merchants and sea salt production has been an element within my game.

[headquarters]

I got something on bronze - it doesnt rust .
Therefore gunbarrels etc were made of this for maritime use well into the 1800s .

With the end of cheap steal , longevity in products will be valued ,and maybe these materials will be used again .

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Fusilier

I think diamonds would be useful and in trade, especially in the larger organized cities and regions. In today's world, over 80% of diamonds are used not for vanity, but for industrial purposes. Cutting, abrasives, heat conductors, drilling, electronics, etc...

Salt merchants and sea salt production has been an element within my game.

Diamonds will only have that value for as long as the electricity, the machine parts, the lubricants and the skilled workers are around to make use of them. To manufacture the items for industrial diamond use requires more infrastructure and resources than will likely be left after the war. However, for someone who has access to these things, their demand for diamonds could make it very profitable for someone to collect them for trade.

Salt becomes valuable simply because it is a necessity for life even without the idea of using it for food preservation or tanning skins etc. And this is a major part of the discussion about things like precious metals and gemstones... if someone believes they are a important, then they will have value. That value is obviously going to be based on how much of a desire there is for the item, how much of it is availalbe and how easy it is to obtain it.
People will make big efforts to recover salt because they know how important it is but will they see the importance in some glassy lumps that look like diamonds when they have no particular use for diamonds?

More importantly, despite what many women will tell you, the majority of people cannot easily tell the difference between real diamonds, diamond-cut crystal, cubic zirconium and diamontes because to really test it you need to conduct test measuring light refraction, heat, adherence of water & oil and the overall lustre. Yes the 'diamonds cut glass' trick does work but there are a number of modern materials such as synthetic sapphires and some new carbon products that will do the same.
About the only sure way for an unskilled person to rule out the others is to use the diamond like a magnifying glass, if it fails dismally at that task, it is more likely to be a real diamond than the other 'gems' mentioned.

Don't think I am rejecting the idea of someone in the post-apocalypse world wanting diamonds (or any other precious metal/stone), it's just that I really do think that for all the trouble it would be to determine whether they are real or fake let alone what they are actually worth will be more trouble than most people would care to indulge in. Without some central group who will underwrite the value of these precious metals/stones and guarantee that they're real, I don't think many people are going to want to take the chance of accepting some shiny glass stones as payment when they can take the shotgun and ten boxes of 12g shells instead.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by headquarters

for bullets ?

A gold bullet can actually do a lot more damage than a hollowpoint or even a dumdum -- but it will also foul your bore more quickly and its questionable whether a gold bullet can even penetrate the denser bones of a human body (such as the skull, femur, pelvis, and whatever the upper arm bone is called), merely cracking them instead.

A better use for gold is as a fine dust. If you have someone on the inside of an organization for a while, you can assassinate by putting gold dust in their food in small quantities for a few months, and they will die of massive organ failure induced by heavy metal poisoning. And, it's tricky to diagnose! (I saw that one on an episode of House , but I followed up with some internet research, and it's true.)

[pmulcahy11b]

Another good use for a gold bar in T2K: bash someone over the head with it, and then steal their gun.

[Mohoender]

Another intersting property for gold is that it is higly malleable. You can make it into thread and use it as such. No need for machinery : A tool (from 15th century) used to make such thread was on display at Bayeux when I was kid and that was impressive.

As gold has a good conductivity, you might use it to repair your local electrical network.

[weswood]

I don't think steel will become more valuable. With all the useless machines- cars, trucks, heavy equipment- useless without sufficient fuel or power to run them, and damaged/destroyed buildings built with steel girders, steel would actually become cheaper. Someone who can work the steel without power tools, now thats a rarity.

I think gold, and other precious metals, and gems will be pretty much useless outside of surviving major cities. As its been said, you can't eat gold or diamonds.

I think small arms ammo will become more valuable than gold. Even with a .22 you can kill a rabbit and have a meal.

[headquarters]

unless cared for all the time -the first years all metals might become cheaper as you said -but after a while all teh good bits will corrode and rust away .

true - a craftsman who works metal will be rich .The smith.

Originally Posted by weswood

I don't think steel will become more valuable. With all the useless machines- cars, trucks, heavy equipment- useless without sufficient fuel or power to run them, and damaged/destroyed buildings built with steel girders, steel would actually become cheaper. Someone who can work the steel without power tools, now thats a rarity.

I think gold, and other precious metals, and gems will be pretty much useless outside of surviving major cities. As its been said, you can't eat gold or diamonds.

I think small arms ammo will become more valuable than gold. Even with a .22 you can kill a rabbit and have a meal.

[Grimace]

I think some of you guys are forgetting how long gold, silver and gemstones have had value. Long before there were computers or established, stable currency there were gold, silver and gemstones. They have intrinsic value because people like shiny metals and pretty rocks.

Do you think it really mattered to the Egyptians that they couldn't use gold for their weapons when they captured it and revelled over it? What about the Sumerians? What was their currency and how did that exchange with the currency that the Hittites used? Basically it didn't matter what their currency was....he who had the most treasure had the most "wealth". He with the most "wealth" usually had a lot of followers and was therefore powerful.

Sure lead is going to be more worthwhile for fighting. Sure gasoline or oil is going to be more worthwhile for travel. But never underestimate the value of someone saying "five thousand bars of gold" and seeing how many people clamor over themselves to get to that gold, even if there's not a currency in place to say it's worth 7.6 million. With gold or silver, or even gemstones, you can CREATE your own currency and then such a thing immediately has value. If my cantonment says that in order to get fed you have to pay 1 silver piece of eight, and someone comes into my cantonment because there's food in there, they'll soon discover that silver is worth something. I don't have to say it's worth 20 dollars. I just need to say it's worth something. Want a box of ammo for your rifle? Pay 2 gold medallions. *Whammo* Gold has worth now. Want to live in a house protected within a fortified cantonment? It'll cost you 5 ounces of diamonds.

Sure you can try to take it by force, but unless you've got an endless supply of ammo to pull from, you might eventually find yourself needing some loot in the form of precious metals or precious stones.

So try not to think in terms of sheer usefulness. Think in terms of greed, power and vanity. Those things existed long, long before computers, catalytic converters, electricity or bullets.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

This is all true but only to a certain extent.
Precious metals and gemstones will only have value if a society believes they are valuable, (society being defined here as a more advanced organization than simply a community of like-minded souls banding together for survival).
But for that to happen, a society has to actually exist. Your historical example is flawed by the simple fact that those societies were not devastated by an apocalypse (to the point were all forms of government were reduced to mere shells)

Gemstones, platinum ingots and so on may be acceptable in the Free City of Krakow but for people outside of such an organized society, carrying around a few kilos of platinum in the hope that you can trade it at the next independent farm is a fruitless exercise because at the end of the day, the most important aspect of using such items is that there are people who can tell real from fake.

How many people do you know who can tell if a gold ingot is pure, how many do you know who can tell the difference between a raw platinum ingot and an aluminium ingot? Who is going to underwrite the value of these items? Money, gems, gold etc. are basically useless until a community has become organized enough to agree to their value, to agree that they are a suitable substitute for the goods that are being traded and has become skilled enough to recognize real from fake.
Within a cantonment it can work perfectly, within the territory of some warlord who controls everything in his domain it can work perfectly, between merchants it can work perfectly but outside of an organized community, it is nothing more than scrap paper, shiny metal and pretty stones.

[Legbreaker]

The answer to the original question is simple...

What's it worth to the person you're talking to that moment.

It all comes back to desire, supply, and demand.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by Grimace

I think some of you guys are forgetting how long gold, silver and gemstones have had value. Long before there were computers or established, stable currency there were gold, silver and gemstones. They have intrinsic value because people like shiny metals and pretty rocks.

You are right about that but this doesn't mean that it had any real value as an exchange product. What you describe is mainly true for small elites.

Gold and precious stones were displayed by rulers but in daily life it was very seldom used (Japan is about the few exceptions). It wasn't used in Europe for regular currencies, it wasn't used in China, it wasn't used in Africa...

The reason for that is not a problem of value but of it not being available in quantity. That would be the case again with T2K. The Markgraf of Silesia might value gold but the regular trader might not have any use for it. In addition, if a group controls a fair quantity of Gold, it might not be able to trade it but it will surely be targetted by everyone else.

Everyone has the image of Spanish ships coming back from South America full of Gold. However, this never occured for real and Gold was only marginal. The Galleons were coming back full of other more valuable goods: Silver, Chocolate...

Later the most valuable good was Rubber grown in the Manaus area. Steeling and exporting Rubber plant was punished by death penalty but despite that, a British finally stole several plants and brought them back to England and, then, India.

Gold gained a real trade value only in the late 19th century when governments became capable of assembling substantial reserve to back their paper currencies (that ended in 1950).

In T2K, a bag of potatoes or a box full of bullets might be much more valuable.

[copeab]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

You are right about that but this doesn't mean that it had any real value as an exchange product. What you describe is mainly true for small elites.

One of the rules of economics is that a item used as currency ideally shouldn't be useful other than as currency (or decoration).

[headquarters]

I guess we soon need a subforum that details all the supply issues ?

gold,coffee,reloading,fuel,farming...

Its just great to read all the different -and well founded -opinions here guys .
If I didnt know how to run this in my campaign -I would after reading these posts.

( I did know incidentally )

My two cents ( well,my other two ) :

Yes it will have value .In T2K almost everything will have value -even dirt thats been radiated . ( "We want ze poisoned dirt to zpread on ze enemy fields-how much iz it?")

farfetched -yes.

So gold and silver -both useful and pretty metals in their way will have a value.

They can be made into a currency -as stated- in say a cantonment ,
they can be bartered for goods in a one on one meeting far from all cantonment

as long as the one party creates a demand for it -say he likes the way it glimmers in the pale ,post nuclear holocaust sun and or that his now dead wife used to have one just like it .

An irrational want for the item as opposed to a calculated motive based on a rational play for higher gain .

These are the theories of the rational /irrational operator in the economic system ( Weber I believe/Vienna school of sosiology - iirc ).

So both the agreed upon value in a community and the spur of the moment barter in the wasteland has merit .It can have a symbolic value as a "coin" -much like or currency bills in RL that have little real application once the agreed upon psychosis that they are "all that matters " lifts

( that would be after T2K like events )

Or gold rings can be worth their weight as fish hook sinks - easy to fix to the line , good density -and looks nice on your rig too.

A practical and a symbolic value .

Everyone will have to decide on the value depending on location and circumstance.

In our campaign gold has had various values .Gen PAin used to hoard huge amounts in teh now smouldering and radioactive crater that was his beloved Library Tower .He believed it would be worth alot--soon .But in that circumstance ,everybody were desperate ,half naked ,cannibalistic savages running around with melee weapons looking to eat thy neighbour. So gold was less valuable than fresh rat meat -or even spoiled rat meat .Later when his hoarding became known ,and the bounty he placed on gold was spread , gold got value and was sold to him for rations.

In the short lived PacGov republic ( corrupt,warmongering dictatorship that it was ) the players made currency in the form of plastic chits /coins after they had reached a certain level of organization.

But they also made gold coins when they started out since these were easier to make with their primitive technology at the time .It is mallable ,and recognized through habit by us as valuable .An agreed upon value ,but also a practical one as the need for a currency arose ,the medium to make one got intrinsic value etc etc .

I do believe in universal value - it will just vary from next to nothing to tremendous.

Sorry if I bored the c**p out of anybody with this .

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by copeab

One of the rules of economics is that a item used as currency ideally shouldn't be useful other than as currency (or decoration).

No doubt, no doubt... But after a subsequent use of these pretty and kind nuclear devices, economy is gone and so are its rules.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by headquarters

Sorry if I bored the c**p out of anybody with this .

Not at all, very interesting in fact. I might be wrong but the result of all this is that barter is going to be the general rule.

As a result, values for everything will vary greatly as you said. Basic of economics.

It's even a reality today. A year ago I fixed my neighbour's computer (48 hours works as he had the most virus I ever saw in a single computer) and in return he fixed my concrete floor (2 hours work for him). The deal was fair:
- He would have had to buy a new computer and I would have spent 48 hours anyway helping him with it.
- I would have spent more than 48 hours to realise the worse concrete floor you can imagine.
In the outcome, he has a working computer and I could open my office in a week, starting to make money.

[weswood]

I think the direction of the campaign in question would also have a lot to do with it. If the situation of the world is going back towards a regular governments etc, gold and gems would be more valuable than if civilization was spiraling downward.

I personally feel civilization would continue to decline. If 75% of the worlds population was killed, most of the people with the technical skills needed to recreate civilization would probably be dead.

[WallShadow]

Present the PCs with a vault filled with gold or a storage locker filled with rare, useful, and functional but more mundane items, and they can choose only one compartment to empty before the bad guys come riding in for the attack.

Of course if they choose the gold, you could reveal to them that they missed out on all kinds of handy items they will probably never see again.

[Graebarde]

Originally Posted by headquarters

I got something on bronze - it doesnt rust .
Therefore gunbarrels etc were made of this for maritime use well into the 1800s .

With the end of cheap steal , longevity in products will be valued ,and maybe these materials will be used again .

Bronze does not rust in the sense you mean, but rust is oxidation, and bronze will oxidize.. turning green rather than red.