Survival of the US 5th ID (M)

[schnickelfritz]

Has anyone out there tinkered with the V1 Kalisz scenario where the 5th Division does NOT get destroyed? After reading the Eastern European Sourcebook (specifically how the 8th ID was equipped) a couple of years ago I began work on a scenario where the bulk of the 5th was able to evade encirclement.

Basically the premise was that a regimental command vehicle of the Soviet 124th MRD was damaged and the maps/plans for the Soviet plans were captured. Simple enough...it's happened before, in particular during WW2.

Thanks-
Dave

[Legbreaker]

It seems unlikely there was an actual plan for the destruction of the 5th, but instead happened more as units reacted to contact. The last 2-3 days may have had some sort of coordination, but prior to that no enemy commander could have had any idea on who the 5th would react - they simply didn't know exactly where the 5th were, nor did they know how much or how little the 5th knew about Pact dispositions.

IF the 5th commander had a perfect overview of the region, detailing each and every enemy unit, the condition of each bridge, and a much larger fuel reserve, then perhaps they could have gotten themselves out of the trap.

[schnickelfritz]

My scenario was predicated upon the capture of either a regimental command post (MTLB and radio vans) or the actual Divisional command post in the road ambush detailed in the V1 scenario.

Within that command vehicle were found up to date maps and plots of the positions of the various WP units and installations at that particular point in time.

It also assumes a small amount of MLRS ammunition was available to the divisional artillery and a small amount of air assets as well, along the lines of what was details for the US 8th ID in The Eastern European Sourcebook.

Add some Russian/Polish speaking interpreters using the WP radio frequencies impersonating the now dead/captured 124th MRD officers to create confusion and dissent between the Poles and Russians and there you have the basic framework.

Once I can get MS Word on this computer, perhaps I'll post the scenario.

I like the fact that it creates the basis for scenarios that aren't the usual "the 6 of us are still on the run from Polish cavalry" deal.

The 5th ID is now down to the bulk of the 1st and 2nd Brigades and stuck in Poland until at least the summer of 2000. Fuel is still short and there are caualties and repairs to be attended to. The divisional large stills were captured, but the 5th captured gasoline and some stills from the Soviets on the way out. The division does not have enough fuel and spares to exit Poland or make it to the coast before winter's arrival without abandoning a good deal of the surviving heavy stuff and a number of the wounded.

The Divisional HQ was still overrun at Kalisz, the CO captured by the Poles while defending wounded too ill to move.

The 5th is still on its own and still way behind enemy lines, and the situation is still grave.

I looked to the RDF Sourcebook and King's Ransom to provide some guidance. Characters would be sent out in small groups to sweep for marauders, secure POW's, raid supplie dumps, and guard convoys, amongst others. There's still a lot of work to do, especially with winter coming.

Thanks,
Dave

[Legbreaker]

I can't imagine the Pact resting until the 5th were destroyed. There's a LOT of units in the area to draw upon, and with the 5th's lack of fuel, all they need to do is keep them pinned for a while until they reorganise and bring up reinforcements.

The situation is different with the 8th - there's very little Pact strength remaining in their area and with one Pact division ready to change sides (if they haven't already - AFB)....
The only thing the 8th and 5th have in common is their lack of fuel.

[Abbott Shaull]

Well by the time of their destruction not many of the Pact forces were willingly pursuing the 5th Mechanized Division. A number of things could of happen, if the 5th Mechanized Division was able to find maps early enough in the start of the 4th Soviet GTA during their counter attack. If and only if they had Polish and Soviet speaking who were able to give false transmissions soon enough, then maybe on the outside chance they could organize a break-out from where they were.

Yet, one has to remember the 4th GTA was attacking from the Southeast, the 22nd CA from the Northeast, as well as an Polish Army that was still in pursuit from the northwest. The 3rd Shock Army wasn't in no position to block to the southwest, but their maybe enough of gap for them to slip to the south...Just maybe...

In order for them to head north then the 22nd CA would have to be slowed up a bit...

[Dog 6]

I like your idea schnickelfritz. in my games the 5th is alive and well off. btw just ignore to leg he's a cannon nut case.

[Legbreaker]

Excuse me!?

Anyone is free to do what they like if they can justify it.

[Snake Eyes]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Excuse me!?

Anyone is free to do what they like if they can justify it.

I think you'll find the justification part to be entirely optional.

Excused.

[Legbreaker]

What I mean by justify is present a logical back story or alternate chain of events for it such as Web has done admirably with his Thunder Empire.

No point simply stating something like the USS Enterprise is still floating and in 100% working order when virtually every other ship in the world is either on the bottom, or trashed from years of combat without also saying it's in such mint condition because it was pulled into an alternate universe at the beginning of the war and then spat back out again.
Or perhaps something a little more believable....

[Targan]

A while back on this forum there was some bad blood relating (in part) to a perception that non-canonical, member-generated content was somehow less valid because it did not conform to canon. Obviously there were other points of difference too but that was one of the main ones. It was made very clear at the time that discriminatory bias against non-canonical works was unacceptable on this forum.

It works the other way too. Just because a member points out differences between canon and a postulated scenario doesn't mean its ok for others to make derogatory comments in response. Personally, I like seeing suggested scenarios critiqued by other members, both pro-canon and freestyle. As long as the critiquing is in the form of constructive criticism or delivered in good spirit and with some logic behind it I think it should be accepted with good grace by all.

That is my hope anyway.

schnickelfritz, the scenario you postulate is an interesting one. If you flesh out the ideas in future posts I for one will be reading them.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

No point simply stating something like the USS Enterprise is still floating and in 100% working order when virtually every other ship in the world is either on the bottom, or trashed from years of combat without also saying it's in such mint condition because it was pulled into an alternate universe at the beginning of the war and then spat back out again.

LOL...I thought that was the USS Nimitz...

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Targan

schnickelfritz, the scenario you postulate is an interesting one. If you flesh out the ideas in future posts I for one will be reading them.

As will I. It's a very interesting idea, although I'm yet to be convinced on the survival of the 5th not unbalancing the entire late 2000 scenario. Definitely want to see your thoughts on that and perhaps help flesh it out a bit.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

LOL...I thought that was the USS Nimitz...

LMAO
You know, I actually thought of using the Nimitz as the example!

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

LOL...I thought that was the USS Nimitz...

Classic film.

[HorseSoldier]

Has anyone out there tinkered with the V1 Kalisz scenario where the 5th Division does NOT get destroyed?

I don't see much point, and don't see it being very plausible for the situation the division finds itself in during the 2000 offensive. I don't see the "we got their plans" counterfactual being adequate to fix the situation -- the point of departure would have to be a couple orders of magnitude more significant. Like no POL from Ploesti for the Soviet forces, otherwise 5th ID(M) gets overrun no matter how you slice it for the force mix and mobility differential. Or significantly more modest aims for the NATO offensive that don't put 5th ID swinging out there in the wind in the first place.

I think the ideas you are looking at, scenario-wise would work better for 8th ID or 2nd MarDiv than 5th ID, the demise of which is sort of a core plot point in the game.

[Grimace]

While the idea of having the 5th survive the battle of Kalisz isn't necessarily a bad one, the whole idea makes me wonder: Why would you want it to survive?

Really, people make changes to the game because they have some idea for what they're wanting to do. I know the idea came from the Eastern European sourcebook, but the whole thing boils down to "What are you going to do with the 5th Infantry Division?"

Realizing that allowing the 5th ID to survive mostly intact invalidates a massive amount of publicized work and gets rid of the whole "you're on your own" bit, it would certainly help to have a grand amount of adventures and overall goal of keeping the 5th in working order? Also realize that you're going to have a completely different make-up of Soviet forces in the area. They wouldn't have just wiped out a division, losing a portion of their forces in the process and generally be in the spririts of winning the battle. Instead, the Soviets would be on a whole different level of alertness. Any soldiers attempting any sort of operations in Soviet areas would have a lot more difficulty. Additionally, the Soviets would likely be using their gasoline equipped vehicles to encircle and cut off the 5th from any support.

So, as others have suggested, maybe using another unit, such as the 8th or the 2nd Marines would facilitate the same sorts of adventures you might have and not toss out pretty much every published adventure idea in Europe.

Also, if you're looking for more stand-up fights instead of 6 people against the world, you might think of putting the PCs in some place the Persian Gulf where the combat forces are still in more respectable fighting order. Or, make up your own situation where you can have some stand-up fights rather than E&E all the time. I did that with some PCs that made it to Cyprus and found the Greeks, Turks and British still very much in active combat operations on the island.
Or just run a campaign or adventure set DURING the war so you can really get the feel for how equipped troops could really handle things that way the loss of the 5th has that much more of an impact later on.

So while I'm not saying your idea is bad, I just think it's going to result in a whole lot of wasted information from published material, and a whole lot of work to rewrite everything so that it fits with the survival of the 5th. If you're up for all of that work, then great! If not, though, you might consider just using another unit.

[schnickelfritz]

Thanks to all for their thoughts. I need to find the time to go back through my escape narrative and make sure it still makes sense. At one point I wrote it first person, then tried to make it more of a true narrative in the Red Storm Rising mold. I have one PC with Word and no internet and one with internet but no Word And no time/energy at night anymore.

What I was working on was a scenario where the bulk of 1st and 2nd Brigades were able to hastily escape the encirclement by forming two pncers, if you will. I thought that one brigade could bypass the 21st MRD to the West by Southeast (essentially skirting the 21st's left flank) and the other by driving through the shattered 124th along the Sieradz-Kalisz road, then driving South then Southeast towards Czestochowa. Forgive me for not having it handy...what I have written and my pile o' T2K is upstairs and the Wife is trying to get my little girls to sleep.

The key was to shatter the 124th (pretty much done) and pin the 21st in place with artillery. The impression I got from the canon scenario was the 21st had a pretty good idea where the 5th was. If you could turn the tables, you could use that to your advantage.

The breakout would be fueled (literally) by gasoline captured from the 124th's supply train and salvaged from their wrecked vehicles. For this I drew upon B troop/116th ACR and their adventures as outlined in the Black Madonna. After exiting the kill zone, they could transition back to their limited stock of alcohol fuels. Perhaps some convoys/dumps would be raided en route, providing them additional stocks of fuel and/or components to replace their now lost divisional stills (assumed to be large stills).

Without the time to brew large quantities of alcohol before winter and without wanting to burn the remainder of their captured gasoline without a good idea that they wouldn't just blunder into more Ivans that NATO intelligence failed to detect, they attempt to set up a defensive perimeter in the Czestochowa area and affect what repairs/recouperation they can and wait out the winter.

As far as still wanting to have small e&e style actions, this would be a messy, hasty, confused breakout. The phrase "all elbows and a-holes" comes to mind (pardon my French). Some portions of the divisional rear area and remnants of the 256th Brigade would still be cut off. If you want to be part of that, that's great.

If you're already captured and sitting on your helmet in some makeshift POW camp, perhaps there is hope we might come get you. Maybe.

Remember, I'm just one part time T2K enthusiast...no one needs to rewrite any of the "Destroyed 5th ID canon stuff" on account of me. That's the beauty of it all.

As far as doing a RDF Sourcebook campaign in CENTCOM...it's a good idea, but I like Europe and Poland in particular. In a way I feel the desire to set things right after the part that the 5th ID played in the destruction of the area not once but twice throughout the Twilight War.

The idea of doing a USMC or 8th ID campaign is good too....I admit I never thought of it, but that's probably due to my attachment to the 5th.

Part of this is also because I was unable to get a pdf copy of the Eastern Europe Sourcebook and some of the Challenge isuues that were missing links until well after I started concrete work on a narrative.

There's a lot of repairs to be made, supply/harrassment raids to be conducted, POW's to liberate, convoys to guard (trading captured Soviet vehicles to whoever has food...most likely Krakow, but anyone will do), returning to the battlefields for salvage, and with winter coming, marauders to fight. The 5th would be in a bit of a catch-22...too big to stay in one place due to the amount of food it would consume, but you don't want to get too spread out, either.

The heavy weapons of the 5th are all short on ammo, just like those of the 8th ID. Your M1A1 may be pretty much intact, but your radio aerial may be shot away. No fear, that one in your platoon that took a suspension kill several KM back...in the killing ground...still has a good spare! Who's up to volunteer?!

And you still only have 20 or 30 rounds left for the main gun. You won't be getting anymore anytime soon, so you better make 'em last!

With their supply lines gutted both during and after the breakout, I see the 4th GTA coming apart , with some units beginning the trek home in spring of 2001. Those will greate band of deserters and marauders that will be problems for months, if not years to come. I think you see this in Going Home, the Black Madionna, and White Eagle.

And thanks to whoever mentioned the Nimitz and an alternate universe...now I have the urge to go find "The Final Countdown" on DVD. Frack.

Thanks-
Dave

[Legbreaker]

The last couple of days of the 5th were chaotic to say the least with it seems, nobody getting anywhere near enough sleep and far too much to do.
It doesn't seem to me as if there'd be near enough time to convert vehicles to captured fuel, and then back again, even if enough fuel was captured.
Also, would the 124th really have had their fuel reserves traveling up front where the combat was to take place?

[Abbott Shaull]

The 4th GTA and 22nd CA were both on the verge falling apart. The Polish units of the 1st Polish Tank Army and other Polish units in the area only playing friendly because the Soviets are still the big boys on the block. The 3rd Shock Army only sent token force in pursuit, the other two units were still stalling on doing anything, either the Army or Divisional Commanders trying to preserve what they have left without throwing it away. The Division that they had sent was the weakest of the three.

What remains of the 1st and 2nd Polish Armies are various states of revolt, a Division of the 22nd CA has defected. Many Army commands and Fronts commands have been absorbed into the nearest Division and many of their Commanders have desires to head home come next Spring. So there lot of grey area to play with.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Dog 6

I like your idea schnickelfritz. in my games the 5th is alive and well off. btw just ignore to leg he's a cannon nut case.

Legbreaker is not the only one to find this remark a little irritating. I think it could have been phrased in a far better manner, this way it just comes across as insulting.

[Legbreaker]

What a lot of people tend to forget is that a LOT of the unit information in the books is post offensive i.e. after they've been through the wringer in the Summer of 2000.

Prior to Summer the situation was very different on the whole.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Legbreaker is not the only one to find this remark a little irritating. I think it could have been phrased in a far better manner, this way it just comes across as insulting.

I would totally agree it could of been put more tactfully, but considering all things of the past. *Shrug*

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

What a lot of people tend to forget is that a LOT of the unit information in the books is post offensive i.e. after they've been through the wringer in the Summer of 2000.

Prior to Summer the situation was very different on the whole.

Yes if people take time to compare the notes from the information out of the box set in V1 and the information given later in Source books, would tend to give that idea to people. Especially since only few unit actually grew, while other were heavily decimated, besides the 5th and 8th Mechanized Division. While some units had detachments else where like the troop of the 116th ACR that ended up in southern Poland...

[HorseSoldier]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

The last couple of days of the 5th were chaotic to say the least with it seems, nobody getting anywhere near enough sleep and far too much to do.
It doesn't seem to me as if there'd be near enough time to convert vehicles to captured fuel, and then back again, even if enough fuel was captured.
Also, would the 124th really have had their fuel reserves traveling up front where the combat was to take place?

Yeah, for it to work it seems like 124th would pretty much have to gift wrap their combat trains for 5th ID(M) and then everyone would have to agree to hand the division some time after that to get themselves set for the breakout.

As it was, they were stranded, with pressure growing from multiple directions and even if 124th just rolled their fuel supply up to whatever passed for 5th ID DISCOM with a hand receipt asking for a signature, the division would have been very hard pressed just to get the fuel distributed to its scattered elements and get the vehicles converted to run on gas before the final attack rolled in.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Dog 6

...a cannon nut case.

If this some sort of all-natural canister round?

[Targan]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

If this some sort of all-natural canister round?

... a-cashew, a-cashew, we all fall down!

[Abbott Shaull]

Remember that the 4th Guard Tank Army was running on Gasoline, but remember unless they trucked it wall with them on their movement, it had probably been stages along their route of march for what some suspect to be their attack into Southern Germany. The normal route probably didn't call for cache of supplies in Central Poland.

I do see the 3rd Shock Army and the Frontal HQ nearby being one of the last supplies caches in the Legnica and Wraclaw regions and part of the reason why these the 3rd Shock Army and it component units were unwilling to move much. Especially if they had KGB Officers over watching these units with orders to protect the fuel dumps at all cost....

[schnickelfritz]

What I got from the V1 scenario was that the 124th MRD was caught in transit by 3-70 Armor and 3-10 Infantry backed by 6 155mm of 2-19 or 2-21 Field Artillery. What I got from the encounter is that the bulk of the effective combat power of the 124th (i.e. the bulk of its AFV's) were destroyed in the initial exchange or the subsequent counterattack on 3-70's positions. My read was that the bulk of the Soviet armor passed by (due to timing) or was allowed to pass by (due to discipline). From what I've studied I get that in the command, main combat, and most of the supply elements of the 124th were totally shattered, causing the bulk of the survivors to desert, flee in total panic, loot, etc., and that it would be some time before it represented anything akin to a cohesive unit.

With that said, I honestly don't get the feel that there were supply dumps of any magnitude west of the Warta and north of the Kalisz-Sieradz road.

Looking back at my material, narrative, and maps, I think that with a little luck and fire discipline (the tankers of 3-70 are by now seasoned veterans and most likely alive because they're good at what they do), you could assume that at least anough of the tankers carrying fuel/water within the 124th's column could survive. If 3-10 Infantry can secure the far side of the road, you can set upon anything that isn't actively exploding like a plague of locusts. You're a long way from home, if you had a chance to get some fuel and water from your enemy, wouldn't you? hell, I'd pick clean anything of everything. When you have no chance of regular supply, I assume anyone in a similar situation would.

My guess is that the men of 3-70 had a bit of time to see what was below them on the road. After 4 years of seeing Russian trucks and markings, my guess at least some of them knew what Water and Fuel vehicles (be they tankers or trucks hauling jerry cans) are marked like.

The vehicles in the task force that engaged the 124th were all low on fuel, which means to me that conversion to gasoline would be as simple as activating the proper control at the driver's station and pumping in enough to get you by.

Excess captured or salvaged (siphoned/pumped or pulled from those handy barrels on the back of Soviet tanks) could be forwarded back to help other units escape.

What I don't quite get is the 21st MRD seemed to either be very lucky or have a much better idea where the 5th was....more so than the others, especially the 124th. They sure seemed to just drive into it blind.

That's all I've got for now...time to put the girls down for bed.

Thanks,
Dave

[Legbreaker]

It's my belief, looking at the Referee's info detailing the aftermath, that the Americans opened up on the combat units of the 124th. It seems extremely unlikely that the 124th would have been advancing with their supply vehicles enmeshed in their combat units.
Also, the combat units represent the greatest threat to the Americans and therefore would attract the bulk of the fire. This would possibly allow any supply vehicles amongst the combat units to flee.

Shattered doesn't necessarily mean destroyed either. It could be applied equally well to disbursed to the four winds, fleeing in panic as far as they could go. These units may have been picked up by other Soviet units in the region and absorbed rather than sent back to the 124th - who in T2K would send a truck full of diesel away when they can run their own vehicles on it for a while?

Looking at the capabilities of the various vehicle types, we can see that onroad a T-72M running on diesel can go approximately 540 km on one load of fuel. In other words, they've probably refueled just once since setting out from the Ukraine, and still have a hundred kilometres or so of range left in their fuel tanks.
With say 20 T-72s that's ony about 32,000 litres - three truckloads. Add in softskins, APCs and the like and it's probably only about 6 trucks used - no need for a stockpile.
Of course they need fuel for their intended mission, so I suppose quadruple that to about 25 trucks for the division, or approximately 250,000 litres - still not enough to warrant supply dumps and the necessary security protecting them would require.

The 3-70 had nothing but fumes in their fuel tanks. There reserves were totally gone. If somebody had squirrelled away a few jerry cans, then would have been the time to use them rather than fight and be destroyed in place as they were.

Yes, multifuel engines such as the M1's don't take a lot of time to convert, but don't forget the multitude of other vehicles within the formation. Each and every one of them according to the rules needs 8 hours work by a competant mechanic to convert. That's one hell of a lot of manhours when the enemy could come down hard at any minute.

Also, we know that the pact frontline units had a difficult time and suffered plenty of casualties against the Americans, however what about their artillery? We know that the US were short of a lot of things by the last day and had virtually no way to get additional ammo from the supply units to those who needed them. Therefore counterbattery fire would be limited at best and the mechanics in constant danger.

Once the combat elements of the 124th were destroyed, and the Americans essentially exhausted, they'd still have to face the Pact artillery. I for one wouldn't like hanging around syphoning fuel tanks while 122mm HE was raining around my ears, and as already indicated, it's very unlikely they'd be any 10,000 tanker trucks sitting about the battlefield.

[Abbott Shaull]

So since the 4th GTA had a months output in their supply chain, how many liters would that be?

The 5th Mechanized start their Offensive action when?

It took the 4th GTA until after the start of July to catch up and pin the 5th Mechanized Division. Seems like to me if they had really been totally running and carrying all of the fuel with them they should of probably slammed into the Division when it was much closer to the IX Corps and not in the middle of Central Poland.