OT - Piracy

[Targan]

I just read this article on the Australian ABC News website:

"The Australian Navy has rescued a group of sailors who were being held hostage by Somali pirates off the Horn of Africa.

The Defence Force says the pirates boarded the Yemeni-flagged boat several weeks ago and were holding three crew members hostage.

HMAS Stuart was in the area and sent a boarding crew to rescue the boat on Monday.

Defence says no shots were fired during the rescue and 15 pirates quickly surrendered to the Australian crew.

It says 11 AK-47 assault rifles with 16 magazines, a large quantity of small arms ammunition and a rocket-propelled grenade launcher with grenades were found during a search of the boat.

The weapons were catalogued and thrown overboard and the unarmed pirates were released with enough food and water to make it back to shore.

The Yemeni boat was then safely escorted from the area by HMAS Stuart."

The section in bold was highlighted by me for emphasis. I'm far from being an expert in international maritime law but WHAT THE HELL?

Throwing the pirates' weapons and ammo overboard and letting them go? Is it just me or does that seem to be, well, INSANE?

They are pirates for cryin' out loud. Somali pirates terrorise, wound and kill innocent sailors on a regular basis. I personally think they should be given a brief trial by ranking officers aboard the navy vessels that capture them and then, if found to have been engaged in armed piracy, summarily executed.

At the very least I would have thought they should be held in custody for trial by the most appropriate authority. Anyone know anything about international maritime law?

[Legbreaker]

This is an issue which has been raised by the media, etc in the past. It turns out that the pirates are supposed to be returned to the country of origin for trial when captured in international waters.
Given the sad state of the justice system in the region, and the fact that the capturing force (Australians in this case) are not nationals, the chance of a successful (or any) prosecution is near nil. Even if convicted, the penalty has often amounted to little more than a good behaviour bond of a couple of months.

Part of the reason behind the leniency is that the pirates are actually contributing significantly to the national economy...

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by Targan

I just read this article on the Australian ABC News website:

"The Australian Navy has rescued a group of sailors who were being held hostage by Somali pirates off the Horn of Africa.

The Defence Force says the pirates boarded the Yemeni-flagged boat several weeks ago and were holding three crew members hostage.

HMAS Stuart was in the area and sent a boarding crew to rescue the boat on Monday.

Defence says no shots were fired during the rescue and 15 pirates quickly surrendered to the Australian crew.

It says 11 AK-47 assault rifles with 16 magazines, a large quantity of small arms ammunition and a rocket-propelled grenade launcher with grenades were found during a search of the boat.

The weapons were catalogued and thrown overboard and the unarmed pirates were released with enough food and water to make it back to shore.

The Yemeni boat was then safely escorted from the area by HMAS Stuart."

The section in bold was highlighted by me for emphasis. I'm far from being an expert in international maritime law but WHAT THE HELL?

Throwing the pirates' weapons and ammo overboard and letting them go? Is it just me or does that seem to be, well, INSANE?

They are pirates for cryin' out loud. Somali pirates terrorise, wound and kill innocent sailors on a regular basis. I personally think they should be given a brief trial by ranking officers aboard the navy vessels that capture them and then, if found to have been engaged in armed piracy, summarily executed.

At the very least I would have thought they should be held in custody for trial by the most appropriate authority. Anyone know anything about international maritime law?

Okay there are some things that I am finding hard that I am defending the actions of releasing. I totally agree they should be put on trail, and with the evidence they should be killed. Yet, we live in a politically correct age, so if we found them guilty and can't say beyond shadow of doubt they were responsible for killing anyone, the most that will happen is they will go to some country and rot in Prison costing money that many governments don't have for more prisoners.

Honestly, if you capturing pirates out in the open sea, well double tap will take care of that. I mean if they are armed and holding people hostages, they are doubtlessly guilty and probably do it again.

Now with that said many of these people are doing this to support their families and clans. So on one hand if we start killing them out of hand because they were pirates, you would see lot of people thinking twice before doing this, but also at the same time pissing of some people who believe that because new world economy has passed them by, they are owed somethings. The real solution is if people want to stop this, is to get where these people have jobs that can support their families where they don't have resort this. Or just put them on show trail and execute them. Either way you will still have lot of things to understand that whatever you do, their will be those who think you not doing enough and those pissy and wanting to go out get revenge later.

Just some thoughts.

[Arrissen]

I did a bit of research on international maritime law a few months ago and well it was slow going. There isn't really alot of clearly defined info out there that's easy to find. In general it seems that the international laws are one thing but when inside the terrtorial waters of a nation their laws need to be obeyed, so it starts to get tricky. Particularly with the issue of carrying weapons at sea on board a private vessel for ship board defence purposes, for example.

As for our apparently soft approach toward this incident, I suppose that by throwing their weapons over board, which means they can't use them again is something at least - we don't need them. And by releasing them I guess it says that we really don't rate them at all as a threat. If they had of resisted they would have been shot but they must have heard that the Australians were coming and so they just gave up! Makes sense to me. I mean sure throwing them over board would be a highly effective deterent, but by sending them home with a smack on the wrist and a care package, well they are the one's then IMO who are made to look really stupid, not to mention absolutely useless as pirates. After all if they are just going to board a ship and do nothing but baby sit the crew they may as well just stay home like the big girls they obviously are and do some knitting for UNICEF or something.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Arrissen

I mean sure throwing them over board would be a highly effective deterent, but by sending them home with a smack on the wrist and a care package, well they are the one's then IMO who are made to look really stupid, not to mention absolutely useless as pirates. After all if they are just going to board a ship and do nothing but baby sit the crew they may as well just stay home like the big girls they obviously are and do some knitting for UNICEF or something.

LOL!

But seriously, if they're desperate enough to try piracy once and they get caught and then discover that as long as they don't put up a fight they get to keep their boat and go home, they'll keep engaging in piracy for sure. I know I would if I were them.

[Legbreaker]

It's a major issue that virtually nobody in the western world wants to tackle effectively. As A.S. mentioned, it requires work to improve conditions and employment within their home country. It's far, far easier for the west to sail a few warships around the area, wave the flag and look like they're "solving" the problem.
Nothing will change until conditions on land improve and law and order becomes more than just a couple of dirty words.

[Rainbow Six]

For what it's worth, the Royal Navy recently did more or less exactly the same thing...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today...00/9455297.stm

[kcdusk]

1. Australia cant protect its own borders from people at sea. Currently, we are investigating if australian police and govt workers showed restraint or over reacted when 300+ detainees rioted (um, as far as i know, no detainee was charged with anything. So who wrecked the facility? Must have been the Aust police and govt workers, yes?).

2. If the Stuart followed the rules i dont know what the cost would have been. Australian dollars for the extended travel dropping the pirates off? International relations costs (lawyers?)? Perhaps the Stuart being charged with kidnap (of the somali fisherman)? The Stuart removing itself from its intended trip perhaps leaving other ships in harms way?

3. It happened at sea, no ones gonna know, machine gun below the water line and move on.

[Fusilier]

Capital punishment doesn't work. The only thing that can be done to improve the situation is an improvement in Somalia. As much as the current laws are frustrating, they are also kept in place because they protect your shipping during maritime disputes.

[Sanjuro]

I saw a great idea online recently: anti-piracy cruises.
You buy a ticket on an ocean liner, which will cruise up and down the Indian Ocean staying in international waters. The cruise ticket includes rental of some suitable valuables, just to be attractive to pirates, and an AK47 or M16. Higher-priced tickets could include an M60, M2HB, RPG or missile launcher.
When the pirates attack, the passengers line the rail and defend themselves!
Premium tickets could even include the use of laser designators for the missiles fired by the onboard helicopters.
Problem solved?

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Fusilier

Capital punishment doesn't work. The only thing that can be done to improve the situation is an improvement in Somalia. As much as the current laws are frustrating, they are also kept in place because they protect your shipping during maritime disputes.

Hmmmm, if you get caught in the act of piracy and the navy double taps you, then capital punishment can be said to have worked, at least in your case!

On the other hand, there is no doubt that the Somalia pirates are doing this for two reasons:

First, the conditions in Somalia, with the complete breakdown of any sort of government, and the loss of all infrastructure is creating the conditions that encourage piracy. Until the various governments get off their collective fat asses and come up with meaningful assistance, the situation will simply get worse.

Second, the Somalia pirates have discovered the great weakness of the developed nations, the lack of will to do anything to resolve the problem. The "put a bandaid on it and forget about it" approach fails to protect the innocent, punish the guilty and put a final end to the problem. Until something is done to help Somalia, then the piracy patrols will continue, more innocent lives will be lost and another generation of pirates will be created.

Based on what I'm seeing on the boob-tube and reading in the various papers and journals....I just don't see any drive on the part of the various political parties to do anything other than bad mouth each other, come up with creative new ways to tax the people, and develop even more creative ways to spend tax revenue on, shall we say, rather brain-dead projects?

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Another aspect of this is that the pirates themselves have generally treated any hostages very well, including supplying familiar foods for them if they are European and so on. The Somali's understand well enough that if they treat the hostages well then some shipping company with a big fat wallet will suck up the insurance premium and have their insurance company pay the ransom to get their people back.
If the Somali's treat the hostages like shit or kill a few of them, the pirates figure the rest of the world is likely to start sending in some special forces to give them a kick in the bollocks. It also means that the general public might start putting pressure on the various governments to actually do something serious about the piracy.

[headquarters]

the catch and release practice with Operation Atalanta and the other naval ops in the region is constant.Happens 10 times for each you read of.

Nobody wants to take the responsibility for trial and incarceration of hundreds of pirates.A dealhas been struck with Kenya to take some of them , but its slow and ineffecient the way its set up. I guess you cant very well get regular servicemen to execute people as a part of their job description in our day - I guess its a good thing.


Also the incidents in international waters make the responsibilty for prosecution and the execution of punishment fuzzy -or so I am told. A friend of mine went down there aboard a Norwegian frigate as a correspondent with khakishirt and camera and all. They filmed the chase and capture of a Somali pirate crew.
Once processed they were released with food and water. A half hour later they came back smiling and happily squandering their rations in plain view - and asked for directions to shore..

I wont go into reasons for piracy and the general state of the world. But I sure as hxxx wouldnt travel those waters without a machinegun section aboard.And a PA shotgun for my self. And a back up 9mm.And another .38. And some body armour with NIJ lvl III rating.(SAPIplates and all).

Anyways - this problem has some similarities to the pirates of the barbay coast and all that ? I will let some the Yanks educate me on that if any are willing.

[HorseSoldier]

Capital punishment doesn't work. The only thing that can be done to improve the situation is an improvement in Somalia.

I think yes and no.

Very publicly hanging someone from a yard arm would tend to have a chilling psychological effect on would be pirates, pour encourager les autres and all that. Would not end Somali piracy, but being killed for your trouble ups the ante a lot versus catch and release.

On the other hand, I agree -- as long as Somalia is a poster child for "failed state" status, desperate people will do desperate things. Clearing the sea lanes of Somali pirates would just pass on that mess to some other venue, be it Somali civilians, neighboring states, etc. Which might be acceptable to the world, which honestly doesn't seem to care except when Somalia's situation inconveniences merchant shipping.

On the other hand, the "home front" whinging and generalized distress that would arise from summarily executing pirates -- or even executing pirates after lengthy international trials (can you even get an international court to do death penalties these days?) -- would undermine the piracy suppression effort more than it would help.

[pmulcahy11b]

I've always felt that a combination of air strikes against the pirates' lair and special operations raids might do the trick. The only thing that's going to work at this point is to kill the pirates and destroy their support infrastructure -- ruthlessly.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

Hmmmm, if you get caught in the act of piracy and the navy double taps you, then capital punishment can be said to have worked, at least in your case!

On the other hand, there is no doubt that the Somalia pirates are doing this for two reasons:

First, the conditions in Somalia, with the complete breakdown of any sort of government, and the loss of all infrastructure is creating the conditions that encourage piracy. Until the various governments get off their collective fat asses and come up with meaningful assistance, the situation will simply get worse.

Second, the Somalia pirates have discovered the great weakness of the developed nations, the lack of will to do anything to resolve the problem. The "put a bandaid on it and forget about it" approach fails to protect the innocent, punish the guilty and put a final end to the problem. Until something is done to help Somalia, then the piracy patrols will continue, more innocent lives will be lost and another generation of pirates will be created.

Based on what I'm seeing on the boob-tube and reading in the various papers and journals....I just don't see any drive on the part of the various political parties to do anything other than bad mouth each other, come up with creative new ways to tax the people, and develop even more creative ways to spend tax revenue on, shall we say, rather brain-dead projects?

As I pointed out the my original reply it takes care of the immediate situation, and I have to totally agree with the rest of your post...

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Another aspect of this is that the pirates themselves have generally treated any hostages very well, including supplying familiar foods for them if they are European and so on. The Somali's understand well enough that if they treat the hostages well then some shipping company with a big fat wallet will suck up the insurance premium and have their insurance company pay the ransom to get their people back.
If the Somali's treat the hostages like shit or kill a few of them, the pirates figure the rest of the world is likely to start sending in some special forces to give them a kick in the bollocks. It also means that the general public might start putting pressure on the various governments to actually do something serious about the piracy.

You have hit the head of the nail. They have realize as long as they treat relatively humanely and not needlessly, they will be allowed to keep on with their piracy. So it business as normal, they know once they start carelessly killing people public opinion will turn against them, and their will be more people out their willing to kill them instead of giving up their ship, and wait for the ransom to be paid. Not only that if they start killing people needlessly, then things will be done to help Somali properly and many of the crews will no longer be so willing to go out. So they need to keep things civilized to keep status quo.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

I've always felt that a combination of air strikes against the pirates' lair and special operations raids might do the trick. The only thing that's going to work at this point is to kill the pirates and destroy their support infrastructure -- ruthlessly.

Paul there so much a part of me that wants to scream, 'Right on!'

The main thing one has to remember is Somali is failed State. With that said, doing air strike and special operation raids will only give them a wild card, and really they have shown they will used it in the past.

Ironically it has taken away of the piracy that still continues in some of the Pacific Sea lanes and they are much more vicious. Just amazing the stories the Insurance Companies want to make public. At least with this option the cargo and for the most part the people are making it to there final destination. Where as out in the Pacific the stuff usually ends up on the black market.

Just some thoughts.

[Legbreaker]

And you can bet the insurance companies aren't just bending over and taking it. Those payouts get repaid to them with interest through higher premiums to all. The transport companies pass on the higher costs to the consumer - that's you and me people!

No wonder the price of living continues to climb....

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by headquarters

Anyways - this problem has some similarities to the pirates of the barbay coast and all that ? I will let some the Yanks educate me on that if any are willing.

Nah, not really; I was just reading on that. The Barbary Pirates were sailing under the flags of various Barbary princes (the Sultan of Morocco, Bey/Dey of Algiers, Tunis and Tripoli). These princes would demand tribute payments (money and sometimes ships) from other countries, or else they would declare war. Interestingly, the accepted form for declaring war would be to chop down the nation's flagpole at its consulate. Then his ships (naval and privateers) would seize all the merchant ships they could, imprisoning the crews until a new tributary treaty was made.

Normally, a country would pay up as a cost of doing business in the Mediterranean. Sending a squadron of warships along with the negotiators would be a useful way to decrease the payment demanded.

The Barbary Wars, as sometimes known here, took place when Tripoli started one of these wars, and the USA didn't want to pay. We did end up paying some money, but not for tribute, just to get back the crew of the USS Philadelphia. In the meantime, the Navy bombarded the city a few times, captured some of the privateers and instigated a revolt that captured the city of Derna.

So, that meant that there was a legally recognized power behind the "pirates"-- really privateers-- and that there was someone to negotiate with, who could stop the raiders. I don't see that in Somalia. As I understand it, there are pirate bosses with their own militias, but there are so many that a country (or group of countries) can't shut off the pirates by talking to any one of them. They are more like crime bosses than princes. You would need to take control of all of their ports, and then find real jobs for all of the ex-fishermen who turned pirate when their fishing grounds were wiped out.

[headquarters]

The various princes as you say , were considered bonafide soveriegns - at least to some extent- by other nations.They also hade the mantle of privateers and thus some sort of legitimacy. (Abolished in the 1850s I think)

I was thinking more of the whole pirates capturing ship and crews and demanding ransom aspect.

I would be surprised if there isnt already secret dealings taking place between pirate lords and shipping reps about tribute/protection as we speak...

As for the fine line between a crime boss and a prince .. I think the local powers that be in the pirate areas of Somalia are closely connected to whatever warlord or other is currently considered the head honcho there. If not indeed they are the same guys. The stream of money would see to that. Revenuesources arent exactly plentiful there.

If the situation is allowed to continue ( and it likely will), there might develop cartels in Somalia that institutionalize the piracy and thus making negotations more similar to what you describe the Barbary coast privateers were like. But in the current confused situations I guess you are right that you cant buy your way out - even if I am thinking that there are attempts made.

As for piracy in General, I have been interested in the subject for years. Apparently only a small percentile is reported.Filing a report means delays and cost increases making most grab and run jobs on the water a relatively safe business.(At least that used to be the situation in the Pacific and South Atlantic until recently).

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

Nah, not really; I was just reading on that. The Barbary Pirates were sailing under the flags of various Barbary princes (the Sultan of Morocco, Bey/Dey of Algiers, Tunis and Tripoli). These princes would demand tribute payments (money and sometimes ships) from other countries, or else they would declare war. Interestingly, the accepted form for declaring war would be to chop down the nation's flagpole at its consulate. Then his ships (naval and privateers) would seize all the merchant ships they could, imprisoning the crews until a new tributary treaty was made.

Normally, a country would pay up as a cost of doing business in the Mediterranean. Sending a squadron of warships along with the negotiators would be a useful way to decrease the payment demanded.

The Barbary Wars, as sometimes known here, took place when Tripoli started one of these wars, and the USA didn't want to pay. We did end up paying some money, but not for tribute, just to get back the crew of the USS Philadelphia. In the meantime, the Navy bombarded the city a few times, captured some of the privateers and instigated a revolt that captured the city of Derna.

So, that meant that there was a legally recognized power behind the "pirates"-- really privateers-- and that there was someone to negotiate with, who could stop the raiders. I don't see that in Somalia. As I understand it, there are pirate bosses with their own militias, but there are so many that a country (or group of countries) can't shut off the pirates by talking to any one of them. They are more like crime bosses than princes. You would need to take control of all of their ports, and then find real jobs for all of the ex-fishermen who turned pirate when their fishing grounds were wiped out.

[Abbott Shaull]

Yeah lot of it went unreported, for as far as it could be left unreported. Same with at times the various other cargoes that go missing from time to time. For exactly the reason as mention about insurance goes up so by default the customer final price does too.