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12-18-2012, 06:01 PM
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The Battle of Athens (2 AUGUST 1946)
I read this and it made me think of the situtation that many reterning Vets from the Twilight War would be coming home too... espeically with way that the MILGOV/CIVGOV spilt and of course the New America factions were playing out.
Does anyone else see game oportunities here? or am i just going crazy?  The Battle of Athens (2 AUGUST 1946) I. Introduction On 2 August 1946, some Americans, brutalized by their county government, used armed force to overturn it. These Americans wanted honest, open elections. For years they had asked for state or Federal election monitors to prevent vote fraud -- forged ballots, secret ballot counts, and intimidation by armed sheriff's deputies -- by the local political boss. They got no help. These Americans' absolute refusal to knuckle-under had been hardened by service in World War II. Having fought to free other countries from murderous regimes, they rejected vicious abuse by their county government. These Americans had a choice. Their state's Constitution - Article 1, Section 26 - recorded their right to keep and bear arms for the common defense. Few "gun control" laws had been enacted. II. The Setting These Americans were Tennesseeans of McMinn County, located between Chattanooga and Knoxville, in Eastern Tennessee. The two main towns were Athens and Etowah. McMinn Countians had long been independent political thinkers. They also had long: •accepted bribe-taking by politicians and/or the Sheriff to overlook illicit whiskey-making and gambling; •financed the sheriff's department from fines - usually for speeding or public drunkenness - which promoted false arrests; •put up with voting fraud by both Democrats and Republicans. Tennessee State law barred voting fraud: •ballot boxes had to be shown to be empty before voting; •poll-watchers had to be allowed; •armed law enforcement officers were barred from polling places; •ballots had to be counted where any voter could watch. III. The Circumstances The Great Depression had ravaged McMinn County. Drought broke many farmers; workforces shrank. The wealthy Cantrell family, of Etowah, backed Franklin Delano Roosevelt in the 1932 election, hoping New Deal programs would revive the local economy and help Democrats to replace Republicans in the county government. So it proved. Paul Cantrell was elected Sheriff in the 1936, 1938, and 1940 elections, but by slim margins. The Sheriff was the key County official. Cantrell was elected to the State Senate in 1942 and 1944; his chief deputy, Pat Mansfield, was elected sheriff. In 1946, Paul Cantrell again sought the Sheriff's office. IV. World War II Ends; Paul Cantrell's Troubles Begin At end-1945, some 3,000 battle-hardened veterans returned to McMinn County. Sheriff Mansfield's deputies had brutalized many in McMinn County; the GIs held Cantrell politically responsible for Mansfield's doings. Early in 1946, some newly-returned ex-GIs decided: •to challenge Cantrell politically; •to offer an all ex-GI, non-partisan ticket; •to promise a fraud-free election. In ads and speeches the GI candidates promised: •an honest ballot count; •reform of county government. At a rally, a GI speaker said, "'The principals that we fought for in this past war do not exist in McMinn County. We fought for democracy because we believe in democracy but not the form we live under in this county.'" (Daily Post-Athenian, 17 June 1946, p. 1). At end-July 1946, 159 McMinn County GIs petitioned the FBI to send election monitors. There was no response. The Department of Justice had not responded to McMinn Countians' complaints of election fraud in 1940, 1942, and 1944. V. From Ballots to Bullets The election was held on 1 August. To intimidate voters, Mansfield brought in some 200 armed "deputies". GI poll-watchers were beaten almost at once. At about 3 p.m., Tom Gillespie, an African-American voter, was told by a Sheriff's deputy, "'Nigger, you can't vote here today!!'". Despite being beaten, Gillespie persisted; the enraged deputy shot him. The gunshot drew a crowd. Rumors spread that Gillespie had been "shot in the back"; he later recovered. (C. Stephen Byrum, The Battle of Athens; Paidia Productions, Chattanooga TN, 1987; pp. 155-57). Other deputies detained ex-GI poll-watchers in a polling place, as that made the ballot count "public". A crowd gathered. Sheriff Mansfield told his deputies to disperse the crowd. When the two ex-GIs smashed a big window and escaped, the crowd surged forward. "The deputies, with guns drawn, formed a tight half-circle around the front of the polling place. One deputy, "his gun raised high ...shouted: 'You sons-of-bitches cross this street and I'll kill you!'" (Byrum, p. 165). Mansfield took the ballot boxes to the jail for counting. The deputies seemed to fear immediate attack, by the "people who had just liberated Europe and the South Pacific from two of the most powerful war machines in human history." (Byrum, pp. 168-69). Short of firearms and ammunition, the GIs scoured the county to find them. By borrowing keys to the National Guard and State Guard Armories, they got three M-1 rifles, five .45 semi-automatic pistols, and 24 British Enfield rifles. The armories were nearly empty after the war's end. By eight p.m., a group of GIs and "local boys" headed for the jail to get the ballot boxes. They occupied high ground facing the jail but left the back door unguarded to give the jail's defenders an easy way out. VI. The Battle of Athens Three GIs - alerting passersby to danger - were fired on from the jail. Two GIs were wounded. Other GIs returned fire. Those inside the jail mainly used pistols; they also had a "tommy gun" (a .45 caliber Thompson sub-machine gun). Firing subsided after 30 minutes: ammunition ran low and night had fallen. Thick brick walls shielded those inside the jail. Absent radios, the GIs' rifle fire was un-coordinated. "From the hillside, fire rose and fell in disorganized cascades. More than anything else, people were simply 'shooting at the jail'." (Byrum, p. 189). Several who ventured into "no man's land", the street in front of the jail, were wounded. One man inside the jail was badly hurt; he recovered. Most sheriff's deputies wanted to hunker down and await rescue. Governor McCord mobilized the State Guard, perhaps to scare the GIs into withdrawing. The State Guard never went to Athens. McCord may have feared that Guard units filled with ex-GIs might not fire on other ex-GIs. At about 2 a.m. on 2 August, the GIs forced the issue. Men from Meigs county threw dynamite sticks and damaged the jail's porch. The panicked deputies surrendered. GIs quickly secured the building. Paul Cantrell faded into the night, almost having been shot by a GI who knew him, but whose .45 pistol had jammed. Mansfield's deputies were kept overnight in jail for their own safety. Calm soon returned: the GIs posted guards. The rifles borrowed from the armory were cleaned and returned before sun-up. VII. The Aftermath: Restoring Democracy in McMinn County In five precincts free of vote fraud, the GI candidate for Sheriff, Knox Henry, won 1,168 votes to Cantrell's 789. Other GI candidates won by similar margins. The GIs did not hate Cantrell. They only wanted honest government. On 2 August, a town meeting set up a three-man governing committee. The regular police having fled, six men were chosen to police Athens; a dozen GIs were sent to police Etowah. In addition, "Individual citizens were called upon to form patrols or guard groups, often led by a GI. ...To their credit, however, there is not a single mention of an abuse of power on their behalf." (Byrum, p. 220). Once the GI candidates' victory had been certified, they cleaned-up county government: •the jail was fixed; •newly-elected officials accepted a $5,000 pay limit; •Mansfield supporters who resigned, were replaced. The general election on 5 November passed quietly. McMinn Countians, having restored the Rule of Law, returned to their daily lives. Pat Mansfield moved back to Georgia. Paul Cantrell set up an auto dealership in Etowah. "Almost everyone who knew Cantrell in the years after the 'Battle' agree that he was not bitter about what had happened." (Byrum, pp. 232-33; see also New York Times, 9 August 1946, p. 8). VIII. The Outsiders' Response The Battle of Athens made national headlines. Most outsiders' reports had the errors usual in coverage of large-scale, night-time events. A New York Times editorialist on 3 August savaged the GIs, who: "...quite obviously - though we hope erroneously - felt that there was no city, county, or State agency to whom they could turn for justice. ... "There is a warning for all of us in the occurrence...and above all a warning for the veterans of McMinn County, who also violated a fundamental principle of democracy when they arrogated to themselves the right of law enforcement for which they had no election mandate. Corruption, when and where it exists, demands reform, and even in the most corrupt and boss-ridden communities there are peaceful means by which reform can be achieved. But there is no substitute, in a democracy, for orderly process." (NYT, 3 Aug 1946, p. 14.) The editorialist did not see: •McMinn Countians' many appeals for outside help; •some ruthless people only respect force; •that it was wrong to equate use of force by evil-doers (Cantrell and Mansfield) with the righteous (the GIs). The New York Times: •never saw that Cantrell and Mansfield's wholesale election fraud, enforced at gun-point, trampled the Rule of Law; •feared citizens' restoring the Rule of Law by armed force. Other outsiders, e.g., Time and Newsweek, agreed. (See Time, 12 August 1946, p. 20; Newsweek, 12 Aug 1946, p. 31 and 9 September 1946, p. 38). The 79th Congress adjourned on 2 August 1946, when the Battle of Athens ended. However, Representative John Jennings, Jr., from Tennessee decried: •McMinn County's sorry situation under Cantrell and Mansfield; •the Justice Department's repeated failures to help the McMinn Countians. Jennings was delighted that "...at long last decency and honesty, liberty and law have returned to the fine county of McMinn...". (Congressional Record, House; U.S. Government Printing Office, Washington, D.C., 1946; Appendix, Volume 92, Part 13, p. A4870.) IX. The Lessons of Athens Those who took up arms in Athens, Tennessee: •wanted honest elections, a cornerstone of our Constitutional order; •had repeatedly tried to get Federal or State election monitors; •used armed force so as to minimize harm to the law-breakers; •showed little malice to the defeated law-breakers; •restored lawful government. The Battle of Athens clearly shows: •how Americans can and should lawfully use armed force; •why the Rule of Law requires unrestricted access to firearms; •how civilians with military-type firearms can beat the forces of "law and order". Dictators believe that public order is more important than the Rule of Law. However, Americans reject this idea. Criminals can exploit for selfish ends, the use armed force to restore the Rule of Law. But brutal political repression - as practiced by Cantrell and Mansfield - is lethal to many. An individual criminal can harm a handful of people. Governments alone can brutalize thousands, or millions. Since 1915, officials of seven governments "gone bad" have committed genocide, murdering at least 56 million persons, including millions of children. "Gun control" clears the way for genocide by giving governments "gone bad" far greater freedom to commit mass murder. Law-abiding McMinn Countians won the Battle of Athens because they were not hamstrung by "gun control". McMinn Countians showed us when citizens can and should use armed force to support the Rule of Law. We are all in their debt. This is a bare bones summary of a major report in JPFO's Firearms Sentinel (January 1995). To learn how the gutsy people of Athens, Tennessee did the Framers of the Constitution proud, send $3 to JPFO, 2872 South Wentworth Avenue; Milwaukee, WI 53207; and request the January 1995 Firearms Sentinel. This document is from: chiliast@ideasign.com (A.K. Pritchard)
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Fuck being a hero. Do you know what you get for being a hero? Nothing! You get shot at. You get a little pat on the back, blah blah blah, attaboy! You get divorced... Your wife can't remember your last name, your kids don't want to talk to you... You get to eat a lot of meals by yourself. Trust me kid, nobody wants to be that guy. I do this because there is nobody else to do it right now. Believe me if there was somebody else to do it, I would let them do it. There's not, so I'm doing it. 
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12-18-2012, 06:51 PM
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From: "Don Hamrick" <ki5ss@yahoo.com>
THE BATTLE OF ATHENS, TENNESSEE — FROM MY OWN RESEARCH — I have done my own research into the Battle of Athens, Tennessee, 1946, and even traveled to Athens, Tennessee, for that research. The following are the pristine examples of a fight for freedom that I uncovered from my research: --------------------------------------- SOURCE: The Daily Post-Athenian, Athens, Tenn., August 7, 1946; pages 1, 6 Mrs. Roosevelt Grasps Local Facts Better Than Most Editor's Note — Our attention has been called to Mrs. Roosevelt's column upon McMinn. She seems to have grasped the facts and significance better than any other outside writer: McMinn A Warning — By Eleanor Roosevelt New York, Monday — After any war, the use of force throughout the world is almost taken for granted. Men involved in the war have been trained to use force, and they have discovered that, when you want something, you can take it. The return to peacetime methods governed by law and persuasion is usually difficult. We in the U.S.A., who have long boasted that, in our political life, freedom in the use of the secret ballot made it possible for us to register the will of the people without the use of force, have had a rude awakening as we read of conditions in McMinn County, Tennessee, which brought about the use of force in the recent primary. If a political machine does not allow the people free expression, then freedom-loving people lose their faith in the machinery under which their government functions. In this particular case, a group of young veterans organized to oust the local machine and elect their own slate in the primary. We may deplore the use of force but we must also recognize the lesson which this incident points for us all. When the majority of the people know what they want, they will obtain it. Any local, state or national government, or any political machine, in order to live, must give the people assurance that they can express their will freely and that their votes will be counted. The most powerful machine cannot exist without the support of the people. Political bosses and political machinery can be good, but the minute they cease to express the will of the people, their days are numbered. This is a lesson which wise political leaders learn young, and you can be pretty sure that, when a boss stays in power, he gives the majority of the people what they think they want. If he is bad and indulges in practices which are dishonest, or if he acts for his own interests alone, the people are unwilling to condone these practices. When the people decide that conditions in their town, county, state or country must change, they will change them. If the leadership has been wise, they will be able to do it peacefully through a secret ballot which is honestly counted, but if the leader has become inflated and too sure of his own importance, he may bring about the kind of action which was taken in Tennessee. If we want to continue to be a mature people who, at home and abroad, settle our difficulties peacefully and not through the use of force, then we will take to heart this lesson and we will jealously guard our rights. What goes on before an election, the threats or persuasion by political leaders, may be bad but it cannot prevent the people from really registering their will if they wish to. The decisive action which has just occurred in our midst is a warning, and one which we cannot afford to overlook. ----------------------------------------- SOURCE: The Daily Post-Athenian, Athens, Tenn., August 21, 1946; Page 1,6. Lincoln Said It And It Applies Now As Then BY JOHN PECK "The government, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." Abraham Lincoln We have seen the latter part of the above quotation exercised here in McMinn County. We now have the opportunity to see the first part of it carried out. What Lincoln meant was just this: The government of any group of people is in the hands of the people and they must carry on an active part in maintaining their government unless they want to abide by the rule of a few unscrupulous persons who find ways and means of getting the reins of power in governmental offices. If the people as a whole do not maintain a vigilant watch over matters of government a few people, grasping for power and domination find it easy to undermine all the principles of democracy. It has been said that the situation now prevailing in McMinn County puts its citizens in the best position of any county in the state and possibly in the nation as to the control and manipulation of its government. We are in just that position if the people as a whole will attend the county-wide mass meetings tomorrow night and participate in the election of the representatives of their respective communities who will serve on the Board of Directors of the Good government League of McMinn County. The people who are elected must have the knowledge that they have the backing of all the people in their community when they go to the various meetings of the Board of Directors and vote on the matters of government that come before that body. The choice is in your hands; 1. Take an active part in your government, as is your duty and privilege as a citizen, or 2. The next time you find that your government has fallen into the hands of unscrupulous politicians just say, "It's my own fault, I had a chance to do something about it but slept through it." ------------------------------------------------------- SOURCE: The Knoxville Journal, August 10, 1946; Page 1, 2. Arkansas GIs Threat New Riots Say Athens, Tenn., Outbreak May Be Mild In Comparison Little Rock, Ark., Aug. 9 (UP) — Determined veterans' opposition to entrenched local political machines flared heatedly in several Arkansas counties today, and one GI candidate said the Athens, Tenn., rioting would be "mild in comparison if there are any irregularities" at the polls. At Malvern, William Weaver, veteran and candidate for sheriff in Hot Springs County, charged his opponent, Ed Deere, was "custodian" of the ballot boxes and warned that "what will happen here" would eclipse the Tennessee GI political revolt. In Yell County, near the Oklahoma border, a crowd of 1500 veterans prepared for a mass meeting tonight to draft an independent ticket to oppose the machine slate of Chancellor John E. Chambers in general elections in the "free state of Yell." In Hot Spring County, Weaver and Coyle Collie, veteran of the Battle of the Bulge, are trying to overthrow the long-entrenched machine of Sheriff Jack Knight. GIs at Malvern planned a meeting tomorrow night. Weaver said "we just want to get a foot in the door of Knight's 'little Tammany' machine." Meanwhile, a five-man committee of veterans found an 87-vote discrepancy in votes cast for county treasurer, thus placing Norman Gray, veterans' candidate, in a runoff with incumbent Treasurer Ernest Stroud. The first official count declared Stroud the winner with a majority, but disgruntled GI forces appointed the committee last night to examine the ballots. In Ouachita a hot election loomed in which veterans are opposing veterans. Despite a no-political clause in its constitution, the Arkansas Department of Veterans of Foreign Wars entered the picture with a statement by State Commander Bob Ed. Loftin, who charged politicians were trying to "use" the VFW vote to influence undecided voters. In Hot Springs (Garland County), a final move to defeat the only successful GI candidate against Mayor Leo McLaughlin's potent local machine, failed today. Prosecuting Atty. Curtis Ridgeway, defeated by ex-Marine Col. Signey McMath, demanded a recount, but the new totals changed only two votes. McMath was the only veteran-supported candidate to win the recent primary. ---------------------------------- SOURCE: The Chattanooga Daily Times, Thursday, August 8, 1946 Repeat on Athens Narrowly Avoided Crockett County Just Misses Election Day Violence Alamo, Tenn., Aug 7 (AP) — a Crockett County political leader revealed today that violence similar to that which marked the Tennessee election at Athens last week was narrowly avoided here. J. T. Green, post commander of the American Legion, disclosed that two mass meetings of veterans were held to dissipate tension among the supporters of an air force veteran, John Paul Butler, 26, who ran for state representative. "Our boys were ready to go," said Green, "but we didn't want an Athens job here. We want to see what can be done legally in the matter." Butler, whose campaign was managed by Green, was defeated by former State Sen. W. H. Stallings of near-by Friendship by 14 votes. Green said the result would be contested before the state primary board. "It would have been the same as Athens here," said Butler, "except that we quieted our boys down. We talked them out of using violence." Butler said his opponent was supported by "a machine." ------------------------------------------------ The Chronology of The Battle of Athens Election Day, August 1, 1946 9:00 am Voting poles opened. Voter turn out was heavy. The First Flare Up — Precinct 1 (Courthouse) The Jailing of Walter Ellis Shortly after 10:00 am Conflicting reports as to when Walter Ellis, GI election judge was arrested, one account says 9:30, another says shortly after 10:00 am, but the overall details are consistent. Ellis was summarily arrested and hauled off to the county jail. He was replaced by Fred West. Dispute over who exactly Fred West was immediately erupted. The sheriff's office described West as another GI; Jim Buttram, the GI ticket manager described him as a deputy sheriff and local bartender. Ellis was held incommunicado at the county jail, and Sheriff Mansfield's men flatly declined to permit either reporters or Buttram to see him. Magistrate Herman Moses, when asked what charges had been placed declared Ellis had "attempted to perpetrate a fraud" by marking ballots in Precinct 1, at the courthouse. Buttram admitted frankly he did not know what had happened in the voting precinct prior to Ellis' arrest but said Sheriff Mansfield's men refused to permit him to make bond for Ellis or to tell him what charges had been placed against the ex-GI. The Courthouse (Precinct 1) 11:00 am-2:00 pm The corridor of the courthouse was crowded with voters, both men and women. Ellis already had been removed, but evidently in fear of some disorder, about 20 deputies, hands on pistols, and blackjacks ready, pushed through the crowd to the voting precinct. This overgrown combat squad was reinforced by several uniformed and armed city policemen and a state highway patrolman with his hand fingering a heavy revolver. The deputies ranged themselves around the voting precinct and several, including one dressed like a character from a western movie, placed themselves on the steps where they could watch the entire corridor. Ex-servicemen regard the day's proceedings with varying attitudes but most of them displayed a bitterness seldom seen in the fighting lines. One ex-soldier watching the guarded vote counting before it was moved to the county jail said: "Over there we had something to fight back with." Another remarked, "We just aren't well enough organized and we haven't got guns. We haven't got a chance with this gestapo." "This is causing a lot of bitterness, and a lot of it will come later today," a man remarked. The Shooting of Tom Gillespie Precinct 11, Athens Water Company Building 2:45 pm Tom Gillespie, a [black] farmer came into the Athens Water Company building, which was serving as the 11th Precinct, to vote. It is not clear which of Cantrell's men positioned himself behind Gillespie to observe his vote but when he was observed to be preparing to vote "the wrong way" the Cantrell man told Gillespie, "You'll have to get out of here. You're voting in the wrong precinct." 3:00 pm Gillespie protested to Deputy Windy Wise, "I've always voted here before." For this monumental impertinence, Wise slugged Gillespie with brass knuckles and shot him with what was said to be a U.S. Army .45 as he stumbled out the door. Gillespie suffered a flesh wound in the small of the back and was taken off by deputy sheriffs for what they said would be treatment. Just to show that the racial question didn't enter into this travesty-on-an-election, the gold starred deputies directed their attention to the GI election clerks and women who were witnessing the count. Apparently, their presence was embarrassing to the professional election thieves. Election Judge (and deputy sheriff) Karl Neil, pistol on hip, ordered Mrs H. A. Vestal and five other women to leave the polls. "Get out!" said Neil. The women stood their ground. "We have a right to watch you count the ballots," one said. Go on, get out of here!" shouted Neil, and the women filed out, protesting. This wasn't enough. Four GI's remained to keep the ballot thieves in line. They were James Edward Vestal (Mrs. Vestal's son), Charles Scott, Jr., Charley Hyde, and J. P. Cartwright. The [Cantrell] machine had six of its bigger bicep boys there, three wearing sidearms. Deputy Neil then ordered Cartwright and Hyde to "go up in the front and sit down." They said they couldn't see the count from there. "Go on up front and sit down, you don't have to see us count 'em." snarled a muscular thug. Cartwright said he wouldn't stay if he couldn't witness the count, so he and Hyde left. This left Vestal and Scott as the only GI watchers for Precinct 11. When Cartwright and Hyde emerged, a roar of anger went up from the hundreds of citizens across the street. The eight or nine deputies in front of the waterworks office fingered their weapons. Charles Scott, Sr. sent word in to his son and Vestal to "come on out. We don't want you boys alone in there with those gangsters." GI Judge Bob Hairrell Beaten 3:15 pm Bob Hairrell, GI judge, beaten by Minis Wilburn, officer of the election, 12 precinct, North White Street, Athens. The First Poll Closing (Illegally) 12th Precinct, Dixie Café 3:55 pm The first closing come at the 12th Precinct, back of the Dixie Café and next to the county jail. The legal closing time was 4 pm. The door was locked and Sheriff Mansfield's men lifted an automobile to the sidewalk, placed it directly in front of the precinct door. Two other cars were placed across the narrow alley to block access to the area of the voting place, and sheriff's deputies, hands on their pistols, guard against entry into the area. 4:15 pm? While GIs watched with a scowl Sheriff Mansfield and a dozen of his deputies piled into two cars and drove off to the 11th Precinct at the Water Commission office. There, deputies, with guns ready, kept all observers away from the sidewalk in front of the office, and a throng of several hundred watched silently from across the street. Vote Counting 11th Precinct, Water Commission Office 4:20 pm? Inside, according to stories the GIs told later, Charles Scott, Jr., and James Howard Vestal, watchers for the GI ticket, were ordered to take seats in front of the room, while the vote counting, by Cantrell men, went on at the rear. Vestal and Scott demanded that they either be permitted to see the ballots or be allowed to leave the area. The sheriff's men refused and ordered them to, "Sit down, you're staying right here." They sat down. A few minutes later, Scott told the machine politicians again that they were leaving. At this, the machine men barricaded the ex-GIs behind a counter and locked the door. 4:45 pm. "We jumped on the counter, climbed over it and tried to get out. The door was locked," Vestal said "and Charlie hit it with his shoulder. They were right at us and trying to slug us with knuckles and their guns. He broke the glass and we stumbled through. Charlie was cut around the shoulders. I got cut a little too, and fell down coming through the door." The door was a plate glass set in a wood frame. A Sickening Sight Then over a thousand people witnessed a sickening sight. Vestal who was until January of this year a first lieutenant in the army engineers corps and twice wounded in the Pacific, scrambled to his feet, blood dripping from a gash in his left hand. Scott too, picked himself up. Through the broken glass, immediately on their heels squirmed Deputy Sheriff Wendy Wise, a shiny .38 revolver poked out in front of his nose. He shouted something which was lost in the moan which went through the crowd. Women screamed; one shouted, "Oh, god, here it comes." From a long line of ex-soldiers on the sidewalk across the street came gasp's, then cries "let's go get 'em!"; "No, we got no guns, stay away from them .45s." Vestal and Scott, whether heeding Wise's orders or through quick instinct, threw their hands high above their heads and walked slowly and alone across the empty street to the refuge of the crowd. Wise leveled his revolver at their backs, then whirled with the instinct of the gunman to one side and then the other to insure against a potshot at himself from the crowd — then aimed again at the backs of the veterans. George Spurling, another deputy, popped up at Wise's side and slowly brought his pistol down in the direction of the retreating boys, aiming either at them or some of the jeering GIs on the sidewalk to which they were going. He and Wise for a few seconds gave every appearance of being trigger happy. It seemed to us, standing just across the street, that Spurling was in the act of pressing his trigger when another deputy half grabbed his arm, gave him a half-dozen swift slaps in the ribs as a signal not to fire. As Vestal and Scott completed their long, measured march, their GI comrades, boiling mad by now, cried to Wise and other deputies, "Throw down your guns and come out in the street and we'll fight you man for man. 4:50 pm Wise ducked back into the Water Commission Office. 4:55 pm But further activity was forestalled when Chief Deputy Boe Dunn drove up in a blue sedan, with two ex-soldiers, Felix Harrod, election clerk, and Tom Dooley, election judge, for the all GI ticket were, being forcibly held and transported by Dunn's group, as six men piled out. The deputies formed a cordon from the precinct to the car and Dunn himself went in and stole the ballot box. At least 15 pistols were trained on the citizens of Athens as the deputies rolled away with the ballot box. They went straight to the county jail. Several citizens broke from the crowd, shouting, "Get your guns, boys, get your guns!" Vestal and Scott Taken To The Hospital Vestal's wounds were treated by Dr. C.O. Foree in the physician's clinic. Two stitches were required to close the slash on his ankle. He also suffered a cut hand. Vestal was a first lieutenant in the 3rd Combat Engineers, 24th Division. He was overseas 30 months, was hit by a Jap hand grenade once and wounded by artillery fire once. "How did today compare to fighting overseas?" he was asked. He was quiet for a moment. "Well, today it made you madder than it did over there. And it was closer range." First Violent Incident in McMinn County Kennedy's Essankay Tire Company 5:10 pm W. O. Kennedy, Republican election commissioner and crowd of veterans walked to Kennedy's garage and tire shop near the center of town. Two deputies, with badges and sidearms walked toward the crowd. This was a mistake as this was most assuredly seen in the abstract a representation of a decade of tyranny and oppression of a despotic government, the Cantrell political machine. The crowd was quickly inflamed at the arrogance of the two deputies and suddenly there were yells of "Kill them, kill them" sounded in the streets. The deputies drew their guns and prepared to shoot down anyone who came near. It is the trained and instinctive nature of veterans of war to react offensively at such an oppressive act committed by the deputies. Otto Kennedy and his civilian task force accepted the challenge. They rushed across the street and overwhelmed the two deputies before the pair could choose a target for their fire. W. O. Kennedy, his two brothers and several other furious vets attacked the deputies with a proper assault and battery upon their faces and ripping their clothes. The crowds packing the main square heard of an impending attack by the sheriff's force and rushed to the scene. First False Alarm Cries of "here they come" sent the onlookers scattering wildly for shelter but the garage garrison stood firm and waited for the assault. When no more gunmen appeared alter five minutes the crowd came out from the hedges, homes and parked cars. By now there were literally thousands of people — mostly men — strung along a three-block area. They were frightened people, and people who were ashamed of their town's politics, but something in the attitude of these embattled veterans held them. Second Alarm Netted Two More Deputies The veterans waited. The mob huddled back against the store as soon as the shot came. Another thunderous warning, "Here they come," emptied the streets. It was an anti-climax. There were no onrush carloads of deputies. Only two deputies appeared. They had guns of course. But the group at the garage had two guns now. Kennedy's rangers made short work of them as they had the first two. The second pair were marched into the garage to join the first pair. Chattanooga Times reporter Richard Rogers attempted to mingle among the crowd when he was spotted as an unrecognizable intruder by a veteran and that veteran challenged him for his business being there. The reporter identified himself and was promptly escorted into the garage were the captured deputies were. In any act of revolt there is the human nature to extract the same king of punishment upon the tyrannical proponents that they had inflicted upon the citizenry. The veteran guards over the four deputies, in using intimidation and humiliation tactics common in any war goaded any one or all the deputies to attempt anything to give justification in the veteran's desire to shoot them, saying "Go ahead, you sons of --------. I'd love to kill every --------- one of you. The reporter's escort pushed him closer to the deputies quite possibly to provide the reporter the opportunity to interview the prisoners, saying to the deputies, "Here's a reporter." Third Alarm Nets Three More Deputies This interview arrangement was interrupted with another alarm warning from outside. "Here they come!" The reporter's escort spun around, and ran outside again. One guard ran after him. This left the four deputies with one veteran guard and the reporter. The lone guard threatened the prisoners saying, "If those guys get in here and get me, I'll kill you first." Another yell bellowed from the street. A veteran stuck his head through the door and shouted "Watch out! They're going to rush us." The reporter ducked behind a stack of tires. Just then there came the loudest most frightening, skin crawling roar of voices those people could emit. The reporter saw the lone guard waving one gun in his direction and upon seeing its muzzle, comparing it to the size of Chattanooga's Braided Tunnel, he jumped through the window which was behind him and the stack of tires. Now out on the street the reporter had seen that the crowd had grown and saw one carrying a 12-gauge shotgun and another had a repeating rifle. Unexpectedly, three deputies appeared on the street. Two were overcome immediately. The third was overpowered by Otto Kennedy, throwing himself upon the larger man, shoved his own .45 against the fellow's face and the fight went out of the deputy. That was the last capture of the engagement. Transport Seven Captured Deputies Out of Town 5:30 p.m. The crowd remained in the streets. The veterans pleaded for volunteers to haul the deputies out of town, and one by one, citizens came forward with automobiles. One of these was an aged gentleman who operates a hardware store near the Essankay garage. He introduced himself as Emmett Johnson. "Do you live in Athens, sir?" "I do. And today I'm ashamed of my home. These gangsters have disgraced us. If the boys want my car they can have it. They can have anything. They should have started cleaning up on those crooks a long time ago." As the deputies lives were in grave danger they were put into cars and driven out of town. Then the crowd was told to scatter. The crowd reluctantly dispersed. W. O. Kennedy Interviewed By Five Chattanooga Times Staff Reporters Kennedy agreed to an interview with the Chattanooga Times. Five of the Times staff drove a mile into the country to Kennedy's home. At the Kennedy home were Otto Kennedy introducing his brothers J.P. and C.O.; J.B. Adams, his son-in-law, and Frank McCracken. Otto Kennedy revealed the deputies were out-of-towners. And one claimed he got arrested this morning on a traffic charge and instead of paying the fine they made him a deputy and gave him a gun. Second Ballot Box Taken To Jail 6:35 pm The sheriff's men, assisted by state highway patrolmen and city policemen removed the automobile from in front of Precinct 12 (Dixie Café) and carried the ballot box into the McMinn County bastille, where presumably, Ellis and several other GIs still were being held incommunicado. As the sheriff's men carried the box across the jailhouse lawn, they were preceded by two men armed with shotguns and followed by four more equipped with heavy-gauge shotguns and high-powered rifles. Apparently pistols, of which several hundred were on display, were not longer considered to handle the occasion. GI's Gather At GI Headquarters 7:30 p.m. GI's Converge On The Jail 8:45 p.m. A crowd of about 500 armed with pistols and light rifles moved on the jail. Battle Begins 9:00 pm Ralph Duggan, a former Navy lieutenant commander and a leader of the ex-GI's said the crowd was "met by gun fire" and because they had "promised that the ballots would be counted as cast," they had "no choice but to meet fire with fire." Violence flared anew with GIs reported firing on the county jail. Shooting began around 9:00 pm for the first time. Sheriff Pat Mansfield Interviewed By Chattanooga Daily Times Via Telephone 10:00 pm Sheriff Pat Mansfield breaks off telephone conversations to Chattanooga Daily Times, stating "I can't talk anymore — there's mob violence at the County Jail right now. Things are too hot here now. I haven't got time to talk to you — I'm standing in front of the door." he said hurriedly as he hung up the telephone. Sheriff Pat Mansfield and Deputies Threaten Hostages 11:00 pm Sheriff Pan Mansfield and deputies threatened to kill three GI hostages held within the jailhouse. The three GI hostages are Felix Harrod, Tom Dooley and Walter Ellis. Thousands of Rounds Exchanged 11:35 pm-12:40 am Thousands of rounds of shots were exchanged between ex-GIs and an estimated 75 deputies barricaded in the McMinn County jail. No state guardsman had arrived at 12:40. Former soldiers were pouring lead into every opening in the brick jail. The officers' returning fire was weakening. Some GIs were firing from ground level across White Street. Others were on roofs on the Power Company Building and other near-by structures. Tennessee State Guard Mobilized? 12:00 am (midnight) State Adj.-Gen. Hilton Butler announced that he was mobilizing the Sixth Regiment of the State Guard in connection with election violence in McMinn County. This report was later proven untrue. GIs Cut Telephone Lines To The Jail 1:00 am GIs cut telephone lines to the jail. The officers, inside the jail, were out of ammunition or running extremely low. Firing of the GIs included rapid bursts of 10 or more shots. Apparently they were using some automatic rifles. Last Warning! Deputies Threaten Hostages' Lives 2:00 am Deputies sent out last warning that they would kill three GI hostages within the jail immediately if the firing did not end. GIs Replied With Ultimatum Of Their Own 2:20 am GIs issued an ultimatum to the deputies to come out with hands upraised or the crowd would rush the jail. GIs Escalate The Fight With Use of Dynamite 2:59 am The ex-GIs went into action with demolition charges — home made, but effective. After a fourth blast had rocked the jail one of the deputies leaned from the building and shouted "Stop that blasting. We'll give up — we're dying in here. Firing continued a few moments then stopped. The Deputies Surrendered 3:02-3:30 a.m. The officers began filing out of the battered building. They were searched, and roughly, by the attackers and marched back into the building to be locked in cells under guard of the ex-GIs. When Wyse came out, several in the crowd surged forward and mauled him with fists and elbows before he could be returned to comparative safety of the bullet scarred jail. Riots & Destruction Begin 3:45 a.m. Automobiles belonging to deputy sheriffs overturned in streets, smashed and burned. 4:00 a.m. Sunrise. Battle over. The veterans armed with rifles were patrolling the streets to maintain order by sunrise. George Woods Concedes 5:00 a.m. By telephone George Woods concedes GI victory. Paul Cantrell Concedes Defeat 7:05 am Frank Cantrell, Mayor of Etowah issued the following statement: "In behalf of my brother Paul Cantrell, I wish to concede the election to the G.I. candidates in order to prevent further shooting. (Signed) Frank Cantrell. Deputies Released From Jail 9:00 a.m. GIs Disperse 10:00 a.m. Three-man Commission Elected 4:00 p.m., Saturday, Aug. 3 Three man commission chosen as governing body by mass meeting at Court House. Volunteers by hundreds offer assistance in setting up government framework. Cleansing & Restoration 4:00 p.m. Friday to 5:00 p.m. Saturday, Aug. 3 Curious crowds mill streets as the new government cleans up "hot-spots." Beer sales banned. Town is orderly. Rumored Biggs-Mansfield Invasion Sets GIs On Alert 9:00 p.m. Saturday Rumor and newspaper story from Knoxville sets off high strung nerves with the report that Biggs and Mansfield will attempt to storm Athens. 1,500 Citizens Converge On Athens 9:00 pm Fifteen hundred citizens pour into Athens with firearms to back the new government. Telephone calls from neighboring cities pledge aid if needed in defense of the town. GIs on Patrol 7:00 p.m. Saturday Aug. 3 to Sunrise Sunday, Aug. 4 Athens is patrolled by GIs and citizens. George Woods Returns to McMinn County Under GI Escort 4:00 p.m. Sunday, August 4 G-I CLAIM ELECTION TO OFFICE — ISSUE STATEMENT This special announcement was hand to the Daily Post-Athenian and Radio Station WLAR at 3:02 A.M. by the Non-Partisan Candidates for immediate release shortly before the exodus of imprisoned officials in the county jail: "The G-I election officials went to the polls unarmed to have a fair election, as Pat Mansfield promised. They were met with black-jacks and pistols. "Several G-I officials were beaten and the ballot boxes were moved to the jail. The G-I supporters went to the jail to get these ballot boxes and were met by gunfire. "The G-I candidates had promised that the votes would be counted as cast. They had no choice but to meet fire with fire. "In the precincts where the G-I candidates were allowed watchers they led by three to one majorities. "THE G-Is ARE ELECTED AND WILL SERVE AS YOUR COUNTY OFFICIALS BEGINNING SEPT. 1st, 1946." The G-I Candidates, thus claiming election to officer are: Knox Henry — Sheriff Frank Carmichael — Trustee Bill Hamby — Circuit Court Clerk Charlie Pickle — Register of Deeds Campaign Mgr for the G-Is was Jim Buttram. George Woods returns to McMinn County under protection by the GI-Citizens Government. Sheriff Mansfield Resigned 5:00 p.m. Sunday Word is received from Nashville that Mansfield had resigned as sheriff. George Woods Declares GI's Elected 10:00 a.m. Monday, August 5 George Woods signs election certificate declaring GIs officially McMinn County Officers.
__________________
Fuck being a hero. Do you know what you get for being a hero? Nothing! You get shot at. You get a little pat on the back, blah blah blah, attaboy! You get divorced... Your wife can't remember your last name, your kids don't want to talk to you... You get to eat a lot of meals by yourself. Trust me kid, nobody wants to be that guy. I do this because there is nobody else to do it right now. Believe me if there was somebody else to do it, I would let them do it. There's not, so I'm doing it.
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#3
12-18-2012, 07:30 PM
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That's a fascinating slice of American history there Nate and I really enjoyed reading it. However your inclusion of "IX. The Lessons of Athens" was, in my opinion, unfortunate. It reads as anti-gun control propaganda. IMHO of course.
__________________
 "It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli
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#4
12-18-2012, 08:31 PM
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Heck, I beleive that any American Citizen should be able to own any weapon, vehicle or peice of equipment that the US Armed Forces is able to get (except for WMD of course)...
__________________
Fuck being a hero. Do you know what you get for being a hero? Nothing! You get shot at. You get a little pat on the back, blah blah blah, attaboy! You get divorced... Your wife can't remember your last name, your kids don't want to talk to you... You get to eat a lot of meals by yourself. Trust me kid, nobody wants to be that guy. I do this because there is nobody else to do it right now. Believe me if there was somebody else to do it, I would let them do it. There's not, so I'm doing it.
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#5
12-18-2012, 08:49 PM
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"It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli
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#6
12-18-2012, 09:13 PM
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ditto when it comes to drinking and driving.. do we blame the car for what happens? or blame the pencil for misspelled words or sppons for obesity? if we had real laws to counter the use of firearms during the commission of criminal acts, the law would be to classify such activities as being more horrendous and punish the offenders thus. Not take the guns away from those whom would use them lawfully and responsibly.
__________________
Fuck being a hero. Do you know what you get for being a hero? Nothing! You get shot at. You get a little pat on the back, blah blah blah, attaboy! You get divorced... Your wife can't remember your last name, your kids don't want to talk to you... You get to eat a lot of meals by yourself. Trust me kid, nobody wants to be that guy. I do this because there is nobody else to do it right now. Believe me if there was somebody else to do it, I would let them do it. There's not, so I'm doing it.
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#7
12-18-2012, 09:48 PM
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Sorry, I wasn't very clear in my last post. I'm not suggesting taking handguns and rifles out of the hands of the American people, that's clearly not practical at this point. I was focussing on your suggestion that civilians be allowed to own any weapons and vehicles that the US military has. It was the thought of fully operational AFVs, grenades, RPGs and man-portable missiles in the hands of the general populace that I referred to as novel.
As for the second amendment, wasn't there a part about the right to bear arms for those involved with a "well regulated militia"? Private ownership of assault rifles by people who are not currently, and never have been, part of the military or police forces falls outside that wording doesn't it? That seems to be ignored or forgotten by the majority of those promoting private firearm ownership. Of course I'm not an American. Maybe there have been further amendments to that wording that I'm not aware of. To be clear, I'd personally like to legally own handguns and military-style rifles. But I've been part of the military and have been trained to handle firearms, as have you. The thought of a bunch of handguns, assault rifles and ammo being kept in a house where a highly disturbed, introverted young man (whose own family had serious concerns about him) can easily get his hands on them just blows my mind.
__________________
"It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli
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#8
12-18-2012, 10:35 PM
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Any able bodied citizen between the ages of 16 to 65 is considered a member of the militia (and thus why civilians can be 'deputized' to form up a posse during manhunts). All the way up to WW1 well-to-do citizens would foot the bill for the purchase of cannons, horses and firearms to be kept for their local armory. There as a story of three well-to-do Americans traveling trhough France during the Revolution, that were looking for a high-quality cannon for their artillery componet of their militia unit.
If you are qualified to fly a helicopter, you should then be able to acquire a helicopter gunship or transport. Being armed only with handguns and hunting rifles wouldn't stand a chance against an opressive state/federal government whose troops are armed with heavy weapons and armored vehicles. The founders were very set on this... they wanted the progression of greiences to go... Soap box, Ballot Box, Jury Box and finally the Munition Box if nothing else has worked to get the government back into their limits and out of the lives of the citizens they are intruding upon.
__________________
Fuck being a hero. Do you know what you get for being a hero? Nothing! You get shot at. You get a little pat on the back, blah blah blah, attaboy! You get divorced... Your wife can't remember your last name, your kids don't want to talk to you... You get to eat a lot of meals by yourself. Trust me kid, nobody wants to be that guy. I do this because there is nobody else to do it right now. Believe me if there was somebody else to do it, I would let them do it. There's not, so I'm doing it.
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#9
12-18-2012, 11:12 PM
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As much as I want to scream at it - you got to love this country.
__________________
Member of the Bofors fan club! The M1911 of automatic cannon. Proud fan(atic) of the CV90 Series.
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#10
12-18-2012, 11:53 PM
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Seriously, the real-life situation today is very, very different from that even 100 years ago, let alone during the time of the Revolutionary War. Back then a majority of Americans would need to know how to handle, maintain and use firearms and many communities would oftentimes have to police and protect themselves. I'm sorry but saying that all adult Americans are part of a well regulated militia in this day and age is, at best, paying lip service to the original ideals behind the second amendment, at worst a total fantasy. However I'd be happy to consider anyone with official military, paramilitary or police training to be, by default, part of a well regulated militia. That seems quite sensible to me.
__________________
"It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli
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#11
12-19-2012, 08:24 AM
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The founders also saw an oppressive government as the real threat to liberty, and the ability of every citizen in good standing to own the same kinds of weapons aviable to governmental agencies was seen as a counterbalance to such a thing ever happening here again. Heck, when i was in my freshman year in High School we spent three weeks going through a firearms safety class... something that very few schools still do today. that ran us through firearms safety and basics of care and use of the most common types of weapons at the time. when I was in elementary school (third grade) we were taught that if you find a gun, you aren't to touch it... that it wasn't a toy. hell, I don't even know if the schools back on the mountain still do this with the kids anymore. because of the way guns are villianized as the source of all evil acts instead of blaming the person who used it for the evil they have committed. 
__________________
Fuck being a hero. Do you know what you get for being a hero? Nothing! You get shot at. You get a little pat on the back, blah blah blah, attaboy! You get divorced... Your wife can't remember your last name, your kids don't want to talk to you... You get to eat a lot of meals by yourself. Trust me kid, nobody wants to be that guy. I do this because there is nobody else to do it right now. Believe me if there was somebody else to do it, I would let them do it. There's not, so I'm doing it.
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#12
12-19-2012, 08:38 AM
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THIS IS MY SIG, HERE IT IS.
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#13
12-19-2012, 09:43 AM
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Several years ago, I had an interesting conversation with my sister. She is your sterotypical Northeastern US Liberal. Bill CLinton should be nominated for saint hood type of thing.
She knows that I own guns. ALL purchased legally. Her opinion was "You have a police department. You do not need a gun." My position was "Yes, Fayetteville, NC has a police department. A very good one most of the time. But what if they can not get to me during a crisis. (Read bad guy in house). What am I supposed to do? I am going to defend my self and my wife." At least she said she would think about that. She never did come back with her answer. So, thank you, founders of the USA. THank you for the Second Amendment. I would like to think that IF the Redcoats were marching down the road to take away a stockpile of weapons for the local militia, I would have been at Lexington Bridge. My $0.02 Mike
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#14
12-19-2012, 08:58 PM
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I understand that with the proper vetting and payment of fairly stiff licence fees that in some US states civilians can own heavy weapons. It's been spoken about on this forum over the years. I also don't have a problem with people have small arms in their homes for defence, provided they are properly trained and licenced. Matter of fact I think my own country has gone waaay too far with its laws. The hoops I would have to jump through to have any kind of firearm in my house make it all but unviable. Having said that, I've strongly considered getting into IPSC shooting and having a .357 wheelgun in the house. It's monstrously expensive here though.
What I've been trying to convey is that gun crimes involving legal weapons (as opposed to gun crime involving illegal weapons which, let's face it, is bloody hard to prevent) basically comes down to availability. It's a simple probabilities equation. The more (even legal) firearms you have in a community, the higher the likelihood is that when people flip out, as they do in every community from time to time, they will have a firearm handy instead of a knife or a heavy blunt object or the makings of a home made bomb in their garden shed. I hate the double-edged sword in this scenario. Personally I support the right of people to defend themselves in their homes. As far as I'm concerned, if someone is criminally trespassing in someone else's home and the resident shoots them to protect themselves and their loved ones, that's just too bad. Don't enter other peoples' properties uninvited. The problem is, if lots of people have assault rifles and lots of ammo easily available to them, from time to time someone is going to lose their sh*t and shoot a bunch of innocent people. I don't see any easy answers for the people of America. I just hope the US finds some kind of middle ground that everyone can live with because if I lived in a country that suffered regular massacres involving firearms I'd definitely want something to change. And suggestions such as arming all the teachers with firearms both horrifies me and also seems like a classic case of treating the symptom rather than the disease. Not to mention that expecting teachers to occasionally have to go into close combat shootings situations seems, well, completely insane.
__________________
"It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli
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#15
12-21-2012, 12:56 PM
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also at the time the constitution was ratified we had already fought the revolution and the war of 1812 literally on our own front lawns. militia were seen as our first line of defense against hostile nations and thus needed to be as well equipped as the regular army. and though some would argue that this is an obsolete way of thinking remember the enemies of the united states have proven they he the mean to attack us on our own soil an the capability to conduct significant damage in an urban environment.(ie 9/11, fort hood, Mumbai) thus we need the militia just as much now as we did then.
__________________
the best course of action when all is against you is to slow down and think critically about the situation. this way you are not blindly rushing into an ambush and your mind is doing something useful rather than getting you killed.
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#16
12-22-2012, 09:58 AM
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Militia. THE answer to a hijacked airliner, or attack on a base outside US borders. Yup, I can see how the average man on the street with his automatic weapon is going to help out there..... [/sarcasm] Seriously!? How is allowing military grade weapons in the hands of civilians going to stop terrorist actions?
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If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem
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#17
12-23-2012, 01:23 AM
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__________________
"It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli
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#18
12-23-2012, 05:04 PM
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Also.. remember what Japanese Admiral Yamaoto said about how big a folly it would be to invade the United States.
__________________
Fuck being a hero. Do you know what you get for being a hero? Nothing! You get shot at. You get a little pat on the back, blah blah blah, attaboy! You get divorced... Your wife can't remember your last name, your kids don't want to talk to you... You get to eat a lot of meals by yourself. Trust me kid, nobody wants to be that guy. I do this because there is nobody else to do it right now. Believe me if there was somebody else to do it, I would let them do it. There's not, so I'm doing it.
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#19
12-23-2012, 06:46 PM
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I haven't put much thought into the idea of prolific heavy weapons in civilian hands, but I would agree that any willing American should be allowed the same equipment as a basic rifleman, possibly sans grenades and squad automatics.
The ability to generate hundreds (if not thousands) of platoon-sized units across a country in a time of crisis is a massive strategic deterrent. Anybody who disagrees should take a look at Afghanistan - and I would argue that the Afghans don't have a quarter of the knowledge base built into their culture in the form of veterans, professional law enforcement, and the like. Those who say that the result would be a bloodbath for the armed citizen are probably right. But consider that the desired end state is not a conventional military victory; your enemy's expenditures simply need to be unsustainable.
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#20
12-23-2012, 07:44 PM
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The Only Thing We Have to Fear, is Fear Itself
Are we really worried about foreign invasion? Or the government dissolving the republic and instituting widespread martial law? Have either happened (excepting the Civil War, and don't get me started on that) since the War of 1812? Er, not really. So what are we so afraid of?
This, in my opinion, is the root of American's obsession with guns: fear. I say this because my own firearms purchases were motivated, in large part, by fear. When I moved out to the country, I moved at least 15 minutes from the nearest law enforcement. A lot can happen in 15 minutes, so I purchased a shotgun so that I could defend my family and myself. That one shotgun turned into a semi-auto pistol (so that the wife could defend herself and the kids, if I'm not around), and then an AR-15 (why?). Americans are afraid of a lot of things. Urban gangs, [illegal] immigrants, terrorists, communists (still), government (in general, but a Democratic Party-led one in particular). Two oceans and a huge nuclear arsenal don't seem to reassure a lot of us. Apparently, owning a couple of high-powered, hi-cap, semi-automatic rifles is just enough to calm the fear. We can mask the fear with the facade of strength. I've got a bunch of guns so I'm tough, independent, and won't take crap from anyone. I won't be a victim. Bring it on. I'm still trying to figure out what makes us Americans, as a people, so darn afraid.
__________________
Author of Twilight 2000 adventure modules, Rook's Gambit and The Poisoned Chalice, the campaign sourcebook, Korean Peninsula, the gear-book, Baltic Boats, and the co-author of Tara Romaneasca, a campaign sourcebook for Romania, all available for purchase on DriveThruRPG: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...--Rooks-Gambit https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ula-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...nia-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...liate_id=61048 https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/...-waters-module
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#21
12-23-2012, 09:49 PM
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Its not about fear. Its about 'you have the right'. Whether you live in a country that acknowledges that right is another matter entirely. Fortunately, I do. After putting up with crap from the king of Britain for a while, then sending him packing, and with the lessons of history there for anyone to see that actually chose to open their eyes and look, the guys that started this country wanted to avoid the same problems.
Thus the reason that our republic was structured the way it was, as well as the reason for the First and Second Amendments. And the order that the 1st and 2nd are in. There are no questions about the reason for the 2nd, nor whether military style weapons are included, to anyone who's able to read and comprehend the Declaration of Independence and the writingof f the Founders. The right to keep and bear arms is about resisting tyranny of government, and when it becomes necessary, dissolving said government. It isnt, and never has been, about hunting, or sporting purposes. Sporting purposes didnt even exist as a concept for gun control until the 1960s, when one of our CONgresscritters got ahold of a Nazi gun control law and decided it was a good idea to use against *everyone*, not just juden. Gun control isnt about firearms; its about control. Making sure that .gov can retain power no matter how abusive they get. I get a kick out of people from other countries trying to preach to us about our firearm laws. Jealous much? I don't preach to you about your insane levels of taxation to support an insane level of welfare programs. Don't tell me how much freedom I should have. If it were up to me, everyone on the planet would have access to whatever they could afford that wasn't a WMD, and any .gov caught making bio or chem weapons would be ripped apart real quick by other nations or their own people. If you prefer a false sense of safety over any kind of freedom, that's your business. Don't try to take MY freedom, though. That goes double if you live in a complete Nannt-state country. You may have been stupid enough to give up all your rights for a welfare check, but Im not. If this post is too political or offends a Nanny-stater, good. I hope every topic where someone thousands of miles away tries to tell me whats best for me gets locked, or better yet, deleted. It offends me to have someone telling me how I ahould luve, what freedoms I should have, what level of welfare I should support, and how much government intrusion into my life I should tolerate.
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#23
12-23-2012, 10:08 PM
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Whoah, easy there big fella! I was taking a fairly softly softly approach but hey, why bother, right stg58fall? LOL! Like I said, it seems to me to be a cost-benefit situation. If the benefits of being able to fend off a hypothetical foreign invasion or government power grab seem to you to outweigh the costs of very real, all-too-regular massacres, that's your call to make. I have no intention of crossing the world's biggest ocean and trying to "take away your freedoms". I''ll be right here in my foolish country, drooling over my welfare cheque and muttering "my preciousss".
__________________
"It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli
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#24
12-23-2012, 10:41 PM
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I understand the purpose of the Second Ammendment. It's not such a bad idea, on the face of it. In its proper historical context, it makes a ton of sense. Today, though? I'm not so sure.
I've read pro-gun arguments that the Holocaust wouldn't have happened if interwar Germany had had its own version of the Second Ammendment. We'll never know. All I know is that any time some fringe citizen or domestic militia (or cult) group starts getting a little uppity in today's America, the government comes down on them like a ton of bricks (Waco, Ruby Ridge, etc.). No personal arsenal of small arms has proven potent enough to stop The Man, so I'm not sure this whole "we need guns to protect all of our other liberties" argument really holds much water. To go back to the context of the orginal Second Ammendment, King George III's British army didn't have M1A1s or Apache gunships. In the late 18th century, a muzzle-loading musket was the great equalizer. Sorry, but hi-cap, semi-auto rifles are no longer insurance against tyranny. What's more likely, a foreign invasion of the United States, the implementation of martial law here, or another theater/mall/workplace/school shooting? No freedom isn't free, but does a heavily armed populace really make us free either?
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Author of Twilight 2000 adventure modules, Rook's Gambit and The Poisoned Chalice, the campaign sourcebook, Korean Peninsula, the gear-book, Baltic Boats, and the co-author of Tara Romaneasca, a campaign sourcebook for Romania, all available for purchase on DriveThruRPG: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...--Rooks-Gambit https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ula-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...nia-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...liate_id=61048 https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/...-waters-module Last edited by Raellus; 12-23-2012 at 10:47 PM.
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#25
12-23-2012, 11:47 PM
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Speaking as a former Class 3 firearms dealer, my view is always going to wind up Pro-Gun.
That being said, the main issue with the talk on bans is that they never work: Columbine happened during the previous ban after all, and look how well that worked out. And do recall, the same political forces behind a new ban was behind prohibition. Once more, look how that turned out. The NRA is getting a lot of hate for the recommendation they offered: myself, I am not a 100% sure its a good idea. But at least they are offering an idea thats new, and offering up things that may need looking at. Is violence in games, tv, music, and movies the root problem? Of course not. Do they have a part in it? Sure. Just as I never took any of my collection of fully automatic silenced weapons and shot some place up, nor will your typical listener of Gangsta Rap, Call of Duty player, or Pulp Fiction fan - but its pretty safe to say they do play a small role - availability of weapons for the one position and then as well so does the role models that popular culture lionises. When you grow up in a place where the local hero's are guys that rob, shoot, and steal, it will have an effect. But lets look at the argument that no one needs a 30rd magazine. How will not having those prevent anything? How will not having a particular style of firearm prevent anything, when all that will happen is the bad guys will find some other tool to use? If you want to ban 30rd mags because no one needs them, then lets ban cars. After all, more kids have been killed by cars doing more than the speed limit than has ever been killed by firearms of any type. So lets ban cars that go faster then 55. Of course, if you suggest this, you'll get rightfully laughed at. But the point is valid. The left will always do a knee jerk reaction based on "Government Knows Best, and Lets Make a New Law". Sometimes, thats the right answer. Not this time. This time the existing laws worked. Lets look at the Oregon Mall Shooting. The press says the shooter shot himself. What they don't say is what was going on around him. A concealed carry permit holder was drawing down on him, and the shooter, for whatever reason that no one will ever know, decided to turn his gun on himself. If that civilian did not pull on him, I think it would be safe to say that more would have died. In the case of Newtown, the shooter - and I refuse to mention the names of those that do these crimes as to give my bit to make sure no one will ever remember who he was, after all, in most cases a desire to make a name for themselves to be remembered by is one of the reasons they do this - attempted a few months ago to purchase a firearm. He was turned down because Connecticut has a very strong permitting process that saw his mental health issues and turned him down. Then, you have the fact that his mother was about to have him committed - this is probably what sparked things - because she saw that he needed the help. His mother, who owned the guns purchased them in a State that has very strict gun laws - which means she was someone no one would have to worry about. To get those guns, he had to kill her in her sleep, and then steal them. Something we all agree is unlawful. He then went to a school, a school that according to law, is a gun free zone. Odd, the law was ignored by a bad guy? Who would have ever thought that a bad guy will ignore the law? Every step of this tragedy was done by a person who broke the law in *every* step of the process. Nothing he did, nothing at all, was permitted by law. So how does making new laws going to help? Ban AR15's? They was at Columbine. The bad guys there used 22's. Ban High Cap Mags? Ak's? Assualt Weapons in general? Hollywood Shootout. Yep. Those laws worked fine. So lets forget new laws that will be ignored. Lets focus instead on prevention. Lets take a look at what we can do to prevent people, not items, to go down this dark path. Lets fix the People that commit these crimes. Lets bring back personal responsibility. Lets all stop looking for something else to blame things on, be it another person, an organisation, or an inanimate object and accept that in the end... We have met the Enemy. And He is Us.
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Member of the Bofors fan club! The M1911 of automatic cannon. Proud fan(atic) of the CV90 Series.
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#26
12-24-2012, 01:17 AM
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It all comes down to ease of access. The car analogy is both accurate and misleading at the same time. There's a difference between killing someone with a car in a genuine accident, by negligent driving and by deliberate vehicular homicide. But it is true that in most countries with high levels of private vehicle ownership you get significant numbers of deaths in all 3 categories. I suspect the same must be true of firearm deaths. In the US there would be purely accidental shootings, shootings related to poor training/weapon handling and deliberate, illegal shootings.
Then there are the cultural aspects to consider. It seems to me that when a person in a western country like Australia or America gets really pissed off with someone, they will often think of dealing with them with some "9mm medicine". Reason/morality/logic usually prevails but when it doesn't, an illegal shooting is obviously much more likely in a place where there is relatively easy access to firearms. That's just common sense. As for foreigners telling Americans how to run their affairs, I''ve read back through the posts in this thread and I can't find anything with that vibe. How other countries run their affairs is the business of their own citizens, no one commenting in this thread has suggested otherwise.
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"It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli
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#27
12-24-2012, 04:06 AM
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been living many years in the States, many years in EU, half of my family here, half there, and I hold both citizenships. Tell you guys what. The Euros don't have a clue on what making a country from scratch is like. All of their nation states, have been made from above; by the elites. The yanks, on the other hand, made the US from bottom up. THEY THE PEOPLE built the country from nothing. They grabbed land from wild beasts, from the natives and transformed wilderness into civilization BY THEMSELVES...single families did it. the US government has always been one or two steps behind hard working people, trying to regulate what THE PEOPLE had already secured. The Euros don't understand what that means. They have been given their land, their civilization and all, as a perk created by their elites; that is why they have the welfare bull embedded in their brains as standard way of life. On the other hand, the Americans have a different attitude towards human organizations. They think COMMUNITY, not government. Unfortunately for them, things are rapidly changing in the States. The freakin government is becoming (both parties) more like the European ones, but THEY THE PEOPLE are reluctant to accept that. The weapons issue falls right into this area. It's a cultural thing. People not used to be helped by governments, reatain in their cultural DNA the convincition that they have to think for themselves, self defense included. In general, I think Americans have the better (more functional) way of thinking: Self responsibility, reliability, credibility, used to be the values that made Americans the most productive, most paid and ultimately happiest people in the world for about a century. The ancient romans had a peak like that, fueled more or less by the same values. I Strongly believe that if America completely loses these values, then America is on its way to the end, and the world will experience more harsh masters again, provided that America will accept to go down silently like UK did. Not at all a certainty.
greetings ambrafoxtrot. p.s. I and my group are playing again (after 1 year) the tale'o war twilight 2000 game. Updates on that thread soon to come.
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He who wants to defend everything, defends nothing - Frederick the Great -
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#28
12-24-2012, 05:16 AM
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Sweeping generalisations, much.
Oh, well, better get back to being a servile lackey of the elites that has been handed everything on a plate...
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#29
12-24-2012, 06:51 AM
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Ain't no lords and ladies in my country. We started out as a penal colony for cryin' out loud! And as for this notion that the USA is a glorious land of equality and egalitarianism, well let's be honest, thats a very pretty notion but it's a fiction. If you come from money you've got a hell of a lot more chance of leaving this world with money too than if you started with nothing. It's not all that different here, I'm happy to admit that. But the richest of the rich in the US easily rival the wealthiest of the old European nobility, only difference is there's no fancy titles and coats of arms on the walls. The greatest of the modern free market economies worship wealth as a far greater virtue than a fair go for everyone. Call me a hopeless pinko if you like but that's just how it is, for better or for worse. You can have all the guns you want in your back woods bunker but when you go up against the might of real money, private or corporate (or government for that matter) you're little more than chaff in the wind.
As for carving out a civilised nation from a vast untamed land full of beasts and savages, at least for the last couple of thousand years the Europens have been butchering each other on a roughly equal footing. In America (and Australia, and New Zealand, and lots of other former European colonies) "civilising" the land is just a polite euphemism for a technologically and numerically superior people engaging in outright land theft and genocide against the indigenous peoples. In the times of the expanding frontiers in America the European descendants were more likely to be using their guns against the first peoples than each other or other European invaders. But that's now our history, long past. Much as the circumstances leading to the writing of our various constitutions and their amendments are also long gone. Homesteading and a pioneering spirit 200 years ago doesn't necessarilly automatically result in a political and sociological situation like that in the US. We've all probably well crossed the line of political ranting by now in this thread and I for my part am sorry for that. I say again, I'm not trying to tell anyone else how their country should be run. But I am calling out hypocrisy and fantasising as I see it. If this is hitting too many raw nerves and generating too much ill-will, I'll stop right here.
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"It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli
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#30
12-24-2012, 10:05 AM
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I teach American (and world) history and, although a few of the points ambafoxtrot makes are valid, there's a lot of myth there too. It's also pretty insulting to Europeans. How many revolutions and civil wars have taken place in European countries? Ya'll probably don't want a history lesson here so I'll spare you, but sheesh. Let's be fair and accurate, here.
I don't get why so many Americans get so defensive when people criticize its institutions. America is not perfect. America can't get better unless we, the people, recognize and acknowledge its faults. Only then can we work together to fix it. There's too much partisanship and finger pointing. The "love it or leave it" attitude is dangerous.
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Author of Twilight 2000 adventure modules, Rook's Gambit and The Poisoned Chalice, the campaign sourcebook, Korean Peninsula, the gear-book, Baltic Boats, and the co-author of Tara Romaneasca, a campaign sourcebook for Romania, all available for purchase on DriveThruRPG: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...--Rooks-Gambit https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ula-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...nia-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...liate_id=61048 https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/...-waters-module
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