13th Armored Cavalry Regiment

[rcaf_777]

If you have been reading Matt Wiser posts you have no doubt heard of the 13th Armored Cavalry Regiment. Over the weekend I did some researching trying to figure out how the unit would look and function. Here is what I came up with so far, suggestion for vehicles or organization changes are welcome.

13th Armored Cavalry Regiment: TO and E

• Regimental Headquarters Troop

• 1st Squadron (Stingrays) (2 x Troops of 4 x Stingrays and 1 x Troop with 4 x M151 with TOW, and 1 x M577)

• 2nd Squadron (Stingrays) (2 x Troops of 4 x Stingrays and 1 x Troop with 4 x M151 with TOW and 1 x M577)

• 3rd Squadron (Motorcycle) (Long Range Reconnaissance) – See Below

• 4th Squadron (Reconnaissance, Surveillance, and Target Acquisition) (LAV-25?)

• Regimental Support Squadron

o Headquarters Troop
o Combat Engineer Troop
o Signals Troop
o Military Intelligence Troop

• Field Artillery Squadron

o Headquarters Battery
o A Battery (6-gun 105mm howitzer battery)
o B Battery (6-gun 105mm howitzer battery)
o C Battery (6-gun 105mm howitzer battery)

• Regimental Support Squadron

o Headquarters Troop
o Supply and Transportation
o Maintenance Troop
o Medical Troop
o Military Police Troop

3rd Squadron (Motorcycle) (Long Range Reconnaissance)

The Squadron has three long range reconnaissance detachments, a communications platoon, and a troop headquarters. As with LRRP units of the past each US Army LRS team is composed of six soldiers:

1. Team Leader
2. Assistant Team Leader
3. Senior Scout Observer
4. Radio Operator
5. Scout Observer
6. Assistant Radio Operator

[Matt Wiser]

In the Red Dawn timeline as opposed to T2K, the 4th Squadron would be an aviation squadron with AH-1F, UH-1H, and OH-58A-apart from the Regiment's HQ troop, the only Regular or USAR personnel in the unit when formed.

In that TL, The LAV-25s would take the place of M-113ACAV in a late '70s-early '80s ACR. Each squadron would have a motorcycle reconnaissance troop as opposed to the Regiment having a full squadron. Keep the Jeeps with TOW to provide some extra antiarmor firepower.

The artillery squadron looks OK.

Just remember that, given the background of many of the regiment's rank and file, that they can be counted on to accomplish their assigned mission; albeit in some very unorthodox methods.

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

If you have been reading Matt Wiser posts you have no doubt heard of the 13th Armored Cavalry Regiment. Over the weekend I did some researching trying to figure out how the unit would look and function. Here is what I came up with so far, suggestion for vehicles or organization changes are welcome.

13th Armored Cavalry Regiment: TO and E

• Regimental Headquarters Troop

• 1st Squadron (Stingrays) (2 x Troops of 4 x Stingrays and 1 x Troop with 4 x M151 with TOW, and 1 x M577)

• 2nd Squadron (Stingrays) (2 x Troops of 4 x Stingrays and 1 x Troop with 4 x M151 with TOW and 1 x M577)

• 3rd Squadron (Motorcycle) (Long Range Reconnaissance) – See Below

• 4th Squadron (Reconnaissance, Surveillance, and Target Acquisition) (LAV-25?)

• Regimental Support Squadron

o Headquarters Troop
o Combat Engineer Troop
o Signals Troop
o Military Intelligence Troop

• Field Artillery Squadron

o Headquarters Battery
o A Battery (6-gun 105mm howitzer battery)
o B Battery (6-gun 105mm howitzer battery)
o C Battery (6-gun 105mm howitzer battery)

• Regimental Support Squadron

o Headquarters Troop
o Supply and Transportation
o Maintenance Troop
o Medical Troop
o Military Police Troop

3rd Squadron (Motorcycle) (Long Range Reconnaissance)

The Squadron has three long range reconnaissance detachments, a communications platoon, and a troop headquarters. As with LRRP units of the past each US Army LRS team is composed of six soldiers:

1. Team Leader
2. Assistant Team Leader
3. Senior Scout Observer
4. Radio Operator
5. Scout Observer
6. Assistant Radio Operator

For what it is worth, looking at numbers, this is more a Cav Squadron than regiment. The way the US uses the term troop and squadron is a little different than most everyone else. Basically, Platoon, then Troop, Then Squadron, then Regiment.

But it looks good considering I don' know the backstory.

[Matt Wiser]

The back story of the 13th ACR is that in the Red Dawn storyline, the Hell's Angels offered their services to the U.S. Army, on one condition: that a Regiment be formed from members who were Vietnam Vets. The Army accepted, albeit reluctantly, and the 13th ACR was formed. A standard three-squadron ACR, with support elements, and a USAR AH-1F unit became the 4th (Aviation) Squadron. They were equipped with Cadillac-Gage Stingrays, LAV-25, and towed 105-mm howitzers. By the end of the war, they had a reputation for ruthlessness, and took pride in that they used less ammunition and produced more corpses than any unit of comparable size. And they could be counted on to accomplish their assigned missions, but given the background of many of the Regiment's members, they did so in some unorthodox ways....

[Canadian Army]

Originally Posted by Matt Wiser

The back story of the 13th ACR is that in the Red Dawn storyline, the Hell's Angels offered their services to the U.S. Army, on one condition: that a Regiment be formed from members who were Vietnam Vets. The Army accepted, albeit reluctantly, and the 13th ACR was formed.

Since the regiment is drawn from Hell's Angels its should be called the 81st ACR. 81 is a metonym. It stands for the 8th letter of the alphabet which is an H, and the 1st letter of the alphabet which is an A, HA = Hells Angels.

The regiment's motto would be "Red and White Forever". Red & White is another metonym; Red & White are the colors of the club.

[rcaf_777]

Updated

13th Armored Cavalry Regiment: TO and E

• Regimental Headquarters Troop

• 1st Squadron
1 x Headquarters Troop (M577)
1 x Troop of 4 x Stingrays
1 x Troop of 4 x LAV-25
1 x Troop with 4 x M151 with TOW
1 x Motorcycle Reconnaissance Troop
1 x Forward Support Troop

• 2nd Squadron
1 x Headquarters Troop (M577)
1 x Troop of 4 x Stingrays
1 x Troop of 4 x LAV-25
1 x Troop with 4 x M151 with TOW
1 x Motorcycle Reconnaissance Troop
1 x Forward Support Troop

• 3rd Squadron
1 x Headquarters Troop (M577)
1 x Troop of 4 x Stingrays
1 x Troop of 4 x LAV-25
1 x Troop with 4 x M151 with TOW
1 x Motorcycle Reconnaissance Troop
1 Forward Support Troop

• 4th Squadron (Aviation)

1 x Headquarters Troop
1 x Troop of 4 AH-1F,
1 x Troop of 4 UH-1H,
1 x Troop of 4 OH-58A
1 x Maintenance Troop
1 x Forward Support Troop

• Regimental Support Squadron

1 x Headquarters Troop
1 x Combat Engineer Troop
1 x Signals Troop
1 x Military Intelligence Troop

• Field Artillery Squadron

1 x Headquarters Battery
A Battery (6-Gun 105mm Howitzer Battery)
B Battery (6-Gun 105mm Howitzer Battery)
C Battery (6-Gun 105mm Howitzer Battery)
1 x Forward Support Troop

• Regimental Support Squadron

1 x Headquarters Troop
1 x Supply and Transportation
1 x Maintenance Troop
1 x Medical Troop
1 x Military Police Troop

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Matt Wiser

The back story of the 13th ACR is that in the Red Dawn storyline, the Hell's Angels offered their services to the U.S. Army, on one condition: that a Regiment be formed from members who were Vietnam Vets.

I guess their motorcycle reconnaissance troop would be fairly distinctive.

[rcaf_777]

There is an old war movie B Movie call Nam's Angels in which a gang of Vietnam Veteran Hells Angels type bikers called "The Devil's Advocates" are recruited by the US Army, for a mission to the Cambodian jungle order to rescue an American diplomat/CIA Agent.

In the movie they ride converted Yamaha bikes. Many are converted by welding armor plating with submachine guns on the handlebars. There is three-wheeler modified from a Harley-Davidson frame with a Volkswagen rear end that is armed with heavy .50 caliber machine guns and a multiple rocket launcher from a helicopter.

In order to open fire on enemy soldiers in trees or towers the gang does wheelies whilst firing their weapons.

The bases for this movie come from a telegram the white house got on 19 November 1965. Sonny Barger the "Maximum Leader" of the Hells Angels motorcycle club sent a telegram to President Johnson offering the Angels as "guerrilla fighters" in the Vietnam War.

While I could find the original source on this there is an online article By Peter Carlson of the Washington Post dated Wednesday, August 9, 2000 in which he talk a 1965 press conference in which Mr. Barger talks about the Telegram to then President Lynd Johnson. This was done apparently to boast the Club image.

http://www.nolimitsonline.com/biker_life1.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nam's_Angels

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

Updated

13th Armored Cavalry Regiment: TO and E

• Regimental Headquarters Troop

• 1st Squadron
1 x Headquarters Troop (M577)
1 x Troop of 4 x Stingrays
1 x Troop of 4 x LAV-25
1 x Troop with 4 x M151 with TOW
1 x Motorcycle Reconnaissance Troop
1 x Forward Support Troop

• 2nd Squadron
1 x Headquarters Troop (M577)
1 x Troop of 4 x Stingrays
1 x Troop of 4 x LAV-25
1 x Troop with 4 x M151 with TOW
1 x Motorcycle Reconnaissance Troop
1 x Forward Support Troop

• 3rd Squadron
1 x Headquarters Troop (M577)
1 x Troop of 4 x Stingrays
1 x Troop of 4 x LAV-25
1 x Troop with 4 x M151 with TOW
1 x Motorcycle Reconnaissance Troop
1 Forward Support Troop

• 4th Squadron (Aviation)

1 x Headquarters Troop
1 x Troop of 4 AH-1F,
1 x Troop of 4 UH-1H,
1 x Troop of 4 OH-58A
1 x Maintenance Troop
1 x Forward Support Troop

• Regimental Support Squadron

1 x Headquarters Troop
1 x Combat Engineer Troop
1 x Signals Troop
1 x Military Intelligence Troop

• Field Artillery Squadron

1 x Headquarters Battery
A Battery (6-Gun 105mm Howitzer Battery)
B Battery (6-Gun 105mm Howitzer Battery)
C Battery (6-Gun 105mm Howitzer Battery)
1 x Forward Support Troop

• Regimental Support Squadron

1 x Headquarters Troop
1 x Supply and Transportation
1 x Maintenance Troop
1 x Medical Troop
1 x Military Police Troop

I was in Armor not Cav, so keep that in mind. I see two things, 1st if this is a US unit still using squadron/troop wrong. Troop is a company sized element, and Squadron is Battalion sized. For example I was D company, 1-303AR Battalion, 81st Inf Brigade if that was Cav it would have been D Troop, 1-303 Cav Squadron, 81st Cav Regiment. 2nd we had two M577 at Battalion/Squadron level one for S2, one for S3, then had attached one M577 from the ENG, and one from the FA the four of them made up our Battalion/Squadron TOC.

[swaghauler]

Your artillery is a bit off. The standard caliber for the US Army is 155mm. These guns outnumber the 105mm at least 5 to 1. If your unit is an Air Calvary unit, you might have an "Air Mobile" Artillery Battalion. Otherwise your looking at a Towed or Mechanized Battalion consisting of 1 Headquarters Battery (Companies are called Batteries in the Field Artillery), 1 Maintenance/Support Battery, and 3 Gun Batteries.
Each Gun Battery is 8 guns broken into Two 4 gun "Platoons" (sometimes nicknamed "Smokes") with a Maintenance "Platoon" and a HQ/Fire Direction "Platoon." The Composition of a Battery is as follows;

Towed: 8 M198 Towed Howitzers (M114's in National Guard Units) with 5-Tons as Prime Movers and M977 HEMTT's as Ammo Carriers. 2 Fire Direction Humvee's, 1 Command Humvee, 1 NBC Humvee, and a couple of 5-tons (maintenance).

SP: 8 M109 SP's, 8 M992 FAASV's, 1 M577A1 Fire Direction Track, 1 Humvee (command), 1 NBC Track (M113), 1 Recovery Vehicle, 2 5-Tons.

Light Infantry/Air Mobile: 8 105mm Towed Howitzers with Humvee Prime Movers and Ammo Carriers (air Mobile) or 5-Tons (Light Infantry), 1 Humvee (Command), 2 Humvee's (Fire Direction), 2 5-tons (Maintenance).

This is of course a "Prewar" TO&E. After the Nukes fall; All bets are off.

[Tnchi2a]

There are quite a few problems with this write-up.
1. the LAV-25 is only used by the U.S. Marine Corps.
2. the first Stingray prototype was produced in August 1984, and the first production models where made in 1988-1990 only for Thailand.
3. as noted above the U.S. Army use 155mm Howitzers only
(105mm guns were only used on early cold war tanks after WWII)
4. A U.S Armored Cavalry Squadron After 1982 is made up of
Tanks: M1s And/or M1A1s Depending on year
CFV: M113 ACAV till 1984 or M3A1s 1985+
all of which would be available in the states NG weapons depots at the time.
now that early (1984) you may find some of the older M60A4s in the mix
with reactive armor up-grades.
A typical 1984 Armored Cavalry Regiment OOB would be:

1st Squadron
1 x Headquarters Troop (M577A3)
1 x Troop of 4 x M1s And/or M1A1s /M60A4s
1 x Troop of 4 x M113 ACAVs
1 x Troop of 4 x M113 ACAVs
1 x Troop of 4 x M113 ACAVs

2nd Squadron
1 x Headquarters Troop (M577A3)
1 x Troop of 4 x M1s And/or M1A1s /M60A4s
1 x Troop of 4 x M113 ACAVs
1 x Troop of 4 x M113 ACAVs
1 x Troop of 4 x M113 ACAVs

3rd Squadron
1 x Headquarters Troop (M577A3)
1 x Troop of 4 x M1s And/or M1A1s /M60A4s
1 x Troop of 4 x M113 ACAVs
1 x Troop of 4 x M113 ACAVs
1 x Troop of 4 x M113 ACAVs

4th Squadron
1 x Headquarters Troop (M577A3)
1 x Troop of 4 x M1s And/or M1A1s /M60A4s
1 x Troop of 4 x M113 ACAVs
1 x Troop of 4 x M113 ACAVs
1 x Troop of 4 x M113 ACAVs

1st Field Artillery Battalion (Mech)
1x platoon of 8x M109A6 ,8x M992 FAASV's, 1x M981 Fire Support Team Vehicle (FISTV), 1x Humvee (command)
1x platoon of 8x M109A6 ,8x M992 FAASV's, 1x M981 Fire Support Team Vehicle (FISTV), 1x Humvee (command)
1x platoon of 8x M109A6 ,8x M992 FAASV's, 1x M981 Fire Support Team Vehicle (FISTV), 1x Humvee (command)

The ACAVs are used for scouting so you would not have a recon Troop
and Air Cavalry Troop (Helicopters) and Towed Howitzers Support is at the Division level and would not be attached to the Squadron Or Regiment

[Matt Wiser]

This is set in the Red Dawn timeline, and a lot of what was available was immediately grabbed by the Army. Keep in mind that the LAV-25 was evaluated by the Army, and the Stingray as well. The Stingray would be produced for the U.S. Military under this scenario, and LAVs would also go to the Army.

[Tnchi2a]

Originally Posted by Matt Wiser

This is set in the Red Dawn timeline

As was this OOB
The Red Dawn timeline starts the war in 1984,
as I stated the Stingray prototype was produced in August 1984
The M1 had been in production since 1980
and was supplemented at the time by the large stock of M60A4s already in service and stored in U.S. Army and NG depots
the U.S government would not stop production of a Tested and already evaluated tank to put and untested Tank in to production.
LAV-25 entered service in 1983 1 year before the events of Red Dawn
so would not be available in the numbers need to fill out the Marine Corps orders let alone to equip the equivalent of a NG unit
To fill out the unit they would use what they had tons of in reserve, the M113 ACAVs P.S. the LAV-25 is in service with the US Army now as the Stryker family of vehicles

Now on the OOB I was stating the requirements By U.S. Army regulations Table Of Organization for a Armored Cavalry Regiment. (ORGANIC TO AN ARMORED CAVALRY SQUADRON,ARMORED CAVALRY REGIMENT, TOE 17485L100.)

[ArmySGT.]

Military Police is a Platoon and not a Troop...... even though their origins are of Dragoons belonging to the Marechausee Corps.

MPs are either Division or Corps MP companies.

There are Escort/Guard MP companies assigned to special assets like moving chemical munitions from depots to an installation or port.

There are EPW MP companies tasked with holding prisoners or civilian detainees.

Lastly there are MP detachments doing special tasks....... Dog handlers assisting VIP security, counter narcotics, counter IEDs. There are police detachments running law operations in war zones. There are MP teams guarding judicial officers and JAG teams doing assessments of EPWs and Civilian detainees. There are MPs guard LTG (three stars) and Senators or Congressmen visiting in theater. Typically guard, escort, law and order, or customs missions.

Division is x4 platoons and a HQ platoon.

x1 platoon = x3 squads (3 teams per squad) Teams are x3 team leader, driver, gunner. Squad Leader usually rides in the junior team leaders vehicle.
x3 M1025 or M1026 HMMWVs and x1 3/4 ton trailer per squad.
x1 M1025 for the PL, x1M998 or CUCV for the PSG.

Corps is x4-6 platoons and a HQ platoon
x1 platoon = x4 squads (3 teams per squad) Teams are x3 team leader, driver, gunner. Squad Leader usually is also a Team leader.
x3 M1025 or M1026 HMMWVs and x1 3/4 ton trailer per squad.
x1 M1025 for the PL, M998 or CUCV for the PSG.
PL has a driver and a Gunner, the PSG either drives himself or uses one of the HQ soldiers on loan.

Team armament: Mk19 MGL. TL M16/M4 with M203 and M1911 or M9, Driver M249 (90s) or M4 (00s) with M1911 or M9, Gunner M60 (90s) or M249 (00s) with M1911 or M9. One shotgun per squad with non lethal ammo.

M2HBs are not typically on the MTOE..... some units yes, some no. If an MP unit has a .50 chances are it is on loan from Battalion.

Last...... Some Divisional MP units have MANPADS. 82nd MP is one equipped with a stinger as part of their mission to protect the CG.

TL M16/M4 with M1911 or M9. PSG M16/M4 with M1911 or M9

All humvees have two radios... AN-VRC -46 with KY-57 (90s) or two SINCGARS (00s) in the 90s the PL would have a GR-106 AM radio and a Battlefax; in the 00s just the AM radio. One OE -254 (90s) or OE-292 (00s) antenna for LR radio relay per squad, and one for the PL.

Explosives would be light. MPs seldom get frag or HE more than two hand and 6-8 HEDP for the team leader. Lavishly supplied with colored smoke for signalling and parachute flares to assist in rear area/base defense. M18 claymores 1 or 2 per squad, M72 LAW (90s) or AT4 (00s) per team.

Night vision........ TL has AN/PVS-5 (90s) or 7 (00s), Driver AN/PVS 5 or 7, Gunner AN/TVS-5 (MK19) and AN/PVS 4 (M60/M249) the TL may have a spare reticle to convert the AN/PVS 4 to M16/M203.

PL has AN/PVS-5 (90s) or 7 (00s). PSG neither, sometime AN/PVS-5 (00s)

GPS....... 90s on the TL and Squad leaders were issued SLGR, by the 90s every team leader is issue a PLGR.

One medic, one mechanic, and one signal is assigned from the HQ platoon to the MP platoon during missions with a large geographic area such as convoy, area security, or route recon......... They assist the PSG.

HQ platoon is much the same in either. Commander has a driver and a gunner (borrowed from 4th platoon), 1SG has a driver and gunner (borrowed from 4th platoon. Ops Sgt (MSGT, with x2 SSGs, x2 Spc clerks), Commo Sgt (SGT or SSG with 4-5 Spcs to assign to platoons, Medical Sgt with 4-5 Spcs to assign to platoons, one Chem NCO possibly one spc, typically not. One Wheeled mechanic NCO (SSG, with SGT asst and 4-6 mechanics and one parts clerk.

Division MP Companies a broken up and assist their brigades directly...... 1st platoon / 1st Brigade..... typically as the EPW collection point/route recon/area security/convoy escort....While 4th platoon and HQ platoon either assist base defense or operate the larger division EPW collection point.

Corps MP companies typically remain collected and under the control of their own company commander or battalion commander........ missions include EPW detention camps.... Critical asset protection (air fields, power plants, refineries, ammo dumps, enemy collect weapons), large scale convoy escorts, and law and order mission in host nation.

MP platoons are seldom doing missions below a Brigade level even though assigned to an MP battalion for organizational or training purposes.

Oddly, it is more common for non MP platoons to be assigned to an MP company or battalion than the reverse... Such as a Cavalry platoon to an MP battalion or a signal platoon to an MP Company.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Tnchi2a

As was this OOB. The Red Dawn timeline starts the war in 1984, as I stated the Stingray prototype was produced in August 1984. The M1 had been in production since 1980 and was supplemented at the time by the large stock of M60A4s already in service and stored in U.S. Army and NG depots.
The U.S government would not stop production of a tested and already evaluated tank to put an untested tank in to production.

The LAV-25 entered service in 1983, 1 year before the events of Red Dawn, so would not be available in the numbers need to fill out the Marine Corps orders let alone to equip the equivalent of a NG unit. To fill out the unit they would use what they had tons of in reserve, the M113 ACAVs.

P.S. the LAV-25 is in service with the US Army now as the Stryker family of vehicles.

Ah, but it's not as straight-forward as you suggest. Yes the war kicks off in 1984 in the Red Dawn timeline, but in that alternate universe the United States' geopolitical and economic situation had diverged from the RL timeline some years, probably at least a decade, before. IIRC in the RD timeline the US was in a steep economic decline and had, for some reason, either lost many of its allies or its traditional allies were in even worse economic shape than the US.

Under those circumstances, any of those significant dates that you mentioned for the RL fielding of hardware could be completely different in the RD universe. I would suggest that in the RD timeline, the US wouldn't have the necessary funds to be developing and producing large numbers of new MBTs and APCs. They'd probably be refurbishing and upgrading existing vehicles, and in all likelihood struggling to maintain military strength anything like the RL US military did during the 1980s.

[Matt Wiser]

Not to mention that Regular Army units have first priority for the M-1s and Bradleys. It's not until 1987-88 that mobilized ARNG and USAR units are reequipped with either the M-1/M2 or get the previously-mentioned M-60A4 with the M-1 turret and keep the M-113. Check the company team mentioned in the Red Dawn fic thread: they use the M-60A4 with the 105-mm gun and the M-113.

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Military Police is a Platoon and not a Troop...... even though their origins are of Dragoons belonging to the Marechausee Corps.

MPs are either Division or Corps MP companies.
...

One thing to add to your long list of what they have, when I was overseas my last couple of deployments was as EOD had MP platoons turn in on average 30 or so AT-4 per platoon, I do not remember if they were Division or Corp MP's but were assigned to combat patrol missions.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by CDAT

One thing to add to your long list of what they have, when I was overseas my last couple of deployments was as EOD had MP platoons turn in on average 30 or so AT-4 per platoon, I do not remember if they were Division or Corp MP's but were assigned to combat patrol missions.

It is part of the short list under explosives. MPs are typically light on HE.

In the 90s with the 48 round HEDP I had 8-10 cans.... When they went to 32 rounds It went down to 4 cans........

M72A2 LAW was one per team in the 90s and AT4 (M136) replaced that in 00s.
M67 frag was one or two per team.
AN/M14 -TH3 thermite was one per team.
M8 smoke was 4-8 per team.
M18 colored smoke was 1 of each except Red then we had 4-8 for marking LZs for medevacs.
M18A1 claymores was two per squad
Rocket illum flares was one per team
Rocket signal flare (red) was two per team for signaling medevac.
Team leaders had 3-6 HEDP for their M203, sometimes non lethal sponge rounds.
Shotguns has 00 buck but, were mostly loaded with rubber shot (00s) or birdshot (90s) for clearing civilians away from convoys.

There was one can of 5.56 to top up the TL and driver.
M60s had 10 or more cans of 7.62N
M249s 4-8 cans of 2 drums each
M9 ammo was just what was in the magazines. Though we pillaged enemy mags for 9mm.

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

It is part of the short list under explosives. MPs are typically light on HE.

In the 90s with the 48 round HEDP I had 8-10 cans.... When they went to 32 rounds It went down to 4 cans........

M72A2 LAW was one per team in the 90s and AT4 (M136) replaced that in 00s.
M67 frag was one or two per team.
AN/M14 -TH3 thermite was one per team.
M8 smoke was 4-8 per team.
M18 colored smoke was 1 of each except Red then we had 4-8 for marking LZs for medevacs.
M18A1 claymores was two per squad
Rocket illum flares was one per team
Rocket signal flare (red) was two per team for signaling medevac.
Team leaders had 3-6 HEDP for their M203, sometimes non lethal sponge rounds.
Shotguns has 00 buck but, were mostly loaded with rubber shot (00s) or birdshot (90s) for clearing civilians away from convoys.

There was one can of 5.56 to top up the TL and driver.
M60s had 10 or more cans of 7.62N
M249s 4-8 cans of 2 drums each
M9 ammo was just what was in the magazines. Though we pillaged enemy mags for 9mm.

They had three to five per three man HMMWV. Now I do not know if that was normal or where they got them, as it is not normal for them to turn them in to EOD but had a couple of companies do this.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by CDAT

They had three to five per three man HMMWV. Now I do not know if that was normal or where they got them, as it is not normal for them to turn them in to EOD but had a couple of companies do this.

Times change, opinions change........ I can only speak for Desert Storm in 91, and Iraqi Freedom in 03,04,05.

Come to think of it ....... The National Guard MP company that was attached to the same Battalion had AN/PVS-14s for the Driver and TL / SL and the Gunners had the AN/PVS -7Bs (00s). Additionally, this NG MP company had the new lighter and smaller airborne version of the SINCGARS radios.
... (MP companies are swapped between Battalions too.) Consisted of three Active, one National Guard, and a Cavalry Troop.

MPs are odd that way. The MP Battalion deploys sometimes separately without companies and takes over units supplied from other active posts, plus reserve, NG, and loaner elements like supply, signal, cavalry, infantry....... mission depending.

[Tnchi2a]

Well a few of the reasons the stingray would not be used
1.its not a main battle tank
2.it was constructed in Slidell, Louisiana, U.S. (which is under Mexican rule in red dawn)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...th_America.png
3.its has no advantages over the current U.S. tanks other then cost (yes it was even slower then the M1 tank)
4. cost to kill ratio was to low only had 23mm armor at is best.
cost 1.5 million per unit (4.3 million for M1) kill rate stranded tank gun 100% all sides
yes the U.S. army did evaluated the stingray as a airborne delivered tank but never as a replacement for the M1 or M60.

now the main and really only needed reason you will not see a LAV-25 used by this unit is its not a tracked vehicle.
Armored cavalry units since the early 80s have been all track units in there combat elements. Before that they were Airmobile units.

On to what I keep hearing about the army getting first dibs
1. the Active duty Army units in the U.S. are already equipped and would not need to raid the Nation Guard Depots for vehicles.
2. There a plenty of tanks for the new units to equip from in the depots.
seeing as most if not all NG units are Infantry.

now just to clarify most of what I'm saying is base of logistics and standard military Naming processors.

Now a unit like this is more likely to be a
Armored Reconnaissance Squadron which is a division level unit that would be broken-up and divided between the brigades as troop level units. and would not get over Squadron size.

[pmulcahy11b]

Ummmmmm...the LAV-25 is definitely not a Stryker; they are based on only tangentially-related platforms, with the LAV-25 based on the LAV II and the Stryker based on the LAV III, and the Stryker being much heavier and...feature-rich.

[Matt Wiser]

Actually, no. Slidell, LA is east of the Mississippi, which is the front lines. A lot of swamp, and having the bridges on I-10 and U.S. 90 blown make SE Louisiana (Baton Rouge-New Orleans-Slidell safe from ground attack. The factory would still be in U.S. hands.

[rcaf_777]

The LAV-25 is and would still be built in Eastern Canada (Ontario), well away from the front line in the US or Western Canada

[Tnchi2a]

Originally Posted by Matt Wiser

Actually, no. Slidell, LA is east of the Mississippi, which is the front lines. A lot of swamp, and having the bridges on I-10 and U.S. 90 blown make SE Louisiana (Baton Rouge-New Orleans-Slidell safe from ground attack. The factory would still be in U.S. hands.

Slidell, LA is west of the Mississippi between pearl river state wildlife preserve
and Big Branch Marsh National Wildlife Refuge.
between the I-10 (East),Route 11 (West), I-12 (North), and Lake pontchartrain (South)
so would be in Mexican hands.

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

The LAV-25 is and would still be built in Eastern Canada (Ontario), well away from the front line in the US or Western Canada

never said anything about General Dynamics Land Systems being in anyone's hands other then the U.S.
P.S. the plant that makes the LAV-25 is in London,Ontario, Canada for Informational Reference.

[Tnchi2a]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Ummmmmm...the LAV-25 is definitely not a Stryker; they are based on only tangentially-related platforms, with the LAV-25 based on the LAV II and the Stryker based on the LAV III, and the Stryker being much heavier and...feature-rich.

Jane's Tank Reconition Guide 2006 (the latest addition I can find)
List the stryker as and i quote "stryker - a U.S. Army model of the LAV-25 with 8 variants in service"
LAV I,II,and III are not sepreate Units but upgrade packages to the LAV line (Light Armored Vehicle)
The "LAVIII Project" as it is called is a Canadian military, is a Project to upgrade its LAV-25A1s to LAV-25A2 (name changed to LAV-A2) status

LAV-25A2
Funding has been approved for continued upgrades to the LAV family to bring them up to the LAV-A2 standard. Phase I improvements include increased external and internal ballistic armor upgrades, improved fire suppression equipment, and upgrading the vehicle's suspension to the Generation II standard.[7] Phase II upgrades include replacing the turret hydraulics with an electric drive system and replacing the thermal sight with an improved model incorporating a laser range finder.

To reflect the improved significant survivability and capability enhancements occurring today, the LAV is being renamed as the LAV-A2. The LAV-A2 project involved developing and installing an internal and external ballistic protection upgrade package for the Light Armored Vehicles, an automatic fire suppression system for the interior of the vehicle and a Generation II suspension upgrade to support the added weight of the new armor. The suspension upgrade includes new struts/steering knuckles, torsion bars, shocks and mounts and drive shaft. The three-kit armor system provides the LAV with additional survivability against improvised explosive devices (IED) and direct-fire kinetic energy weapons.

The LAV-25A2 includes the Improved Thermal Sight System (ITSS) developed by Raytheon, scheduled for fielding by the end of 2007. The ITSS provides the gunner and commander with thermal images, an eye-safe laser range finder, a fire-control solution and far-target location target grid information.[8]

The new armor will provide protection from 14.5 mm armor-piercing rounds, and include an anti-spall lining on the inside to further protect crew members. It will be similar to the protection found on the U.S. Army's LAV III "Stryker" variant.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Tnchi2a

Jane's Tank Reconition Guide 2006 (the latest addition I can find)
List the stryker as and i quote "stryker - a U.S. Army model of the LAV-25 with 8 variants in service"

I think that is either an oversimplification or flat out incorrect. The Mowag Piranha evolution branched into 2 different paths: the LAV25 path and the LAV III path. Virtually everything I have read puts the Stryker as an extension of the LAVIII path as they share a common chassis.

Things like the LAV-25 being amphibious and maintaining its C-130 transport status (without a USAF waiver) would seem to reinforce serious differences, as these are traits not held by either the LAVIII nor the Stryker.


Edit.
This seems to cover the basics
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...ground/lav.htm
with the lav-25 being GEN II and the Stryker being GEN III

The GEN II has been designed and equipped with the capability, mobility, agility, and flexibility for operations in hot dry, hot humid, mild cold to cold climatic conditions and on highways, off road, cross-country, level and hilly unimproved roads, and urban environments. Its low silhouette makes it a difficult target to detect and destroy.

The GEN III configurations are newly designed LAVs from ground up. The chassis is longer and wider than the baseline vehicle. Higher capacity Power Pack, Driveline and Suspension have been introduced to provide more load carrying capacity.

[Tnchi2a]

Originally Posted by kato13

I think that is either an oversimplification or flat out incorrect. The Mowag Piranha evolution branched into 2 different paths: the LAV25 path and the LAV III path. Virtually everything I have read puts the Stryker as an extension of the LAVIII path as they share a common chassis.

Things like the LAV-25 being amphibious and maintaining its C-130 transport status (without a USAF waiver) would seem to reinforce serious differences, as these are traits not held by either the LAVIII nor the Stryker.

That is possible the Reference materials I have found seem to contradict each other when it comes to this.

Jane's=said they are the same
Wikipedia=said they are the same
globalsecurity.org/milita = claims there different
General Dynamics Land Systems website = is confusing on the subject
Canadian Army website = waffle on the subject claiming in some place its an upgrade and another its a new vehicle build from the ground up ?
Where they all seem to agree that there all part of the LAV family , which is confusing in its self give the use a vehicle Family seems to be different from on company to another.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Tnchi2a

That is possible the Reference materials I have found seem to contradict each other when it comes to this.

Jane's=said they are the same
Wikipedia=said they are the same
globalsecurity.org/milita = claims there different
General Dynamics Land Systems website = is confusing on the subject
Canadian Army website = waffle on the subject claiming in some place its an upgrade and anothers its a new vehicle build from the ground up ?

It could simply be what their definition of "upgrade" is.

Wikipedia does seem to show is as a LAVIII extension

The Stryker is based on the LAV III light-armored vehicle, which in turn was based on the Swiss MOWAG Piranha III 8x8.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stryker

And this being the Mowag family tree
Family tree

• Piranha I
  • AVGP
  • LAV-25
    • ASLAV
• Piranha II
  • Bison
  • Coyote
  • Desert Piranha
  • LAV II
• Piranha III
  • Piranha IIIC
  • Piranha IIIH
    • LAV III
      • Stryker
      • NZLAV
• Piranha IV
• Piranha V

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mowag_Piranha#Family_tree

[Tnchi2a]

Ok it took me awhile but i found my field manual with the U.S. unit breakdowns in it.
First let me say we where all way off in size

U.S. Cavalry unit names
Regiment = Brigade
Squadron = Battalion
Troop = Company
Troop made up of 3 to 4 combat platoons

A typical 1984 Armored Cavalry Squardon OOB would be:

Troop A
1 x Headquarters Troop 1xM1,3xHMMVV,1xM577,1xM106,1xM939 5-ton truck
1 x Platoon of 6 x M3 Bradley CFV
1 x Platoon of 4 x M1 Abrams
1 x Platoon of 6 x M3 Bradley CFV
1 x Platoon of 4 x M1 Abrams
1 x Mortar Section of 2 x M106s

Troop B
1 x Headquarters Troop 1xM1,3xHMMVV,1xM577,1xM106,1xM939 5-ton truck
1 x Platoon of 6 x M3 Bradley CFV
1 x Platoon of 4 x M1 Abrams
1 x Platoon of 6 x M3 Bradley CFV
1 x Platoon of 4 x M1 Abrams
1 x Mortar Section of 2 x M106s

Troop C
1 x Headquarters Troop 1xM1,3xHMMVV,1xM577,1xM106,1xM939 5-ton truck
1 x Platoon of 6 x M3 Bradley CFV
1 x Platoon of 4 x M1 Abrams
1 x Platoon of 6 x M3 Bradley CFV
1 x Platoon of 4 x M1 Abrams
1 x Mortar Section of 2 x M106s

Armor Company (also known as Troop D)
1 x HQ of 2xM1 Abrams,2xHMMVV,1xM106,1xM939 5-ton truck
1 x Platoon of 4 x M1 Abrams
1 x Platoon of 4 x M1 Abrams
1 x Platoon of 4 x M1 Abrams
Turns out the Army was nearly finished equipping is units with M1s and M3s by 1983 so this unit may or may not have access to them depending on how many are in reserve in 1984.
the M60A4s and M113 ACAVs are the units they replaced as stated earlier.


1st Field Artillery Battalion (Mech)
1x battery of 8x M109A6 ,8x M992 FAASV's, 1x M981 Fire Support Team
1x battery of 8x M109A6 ,8x M992 FAASV's, 1x M981 Fire Support Team