Composition of TF34

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I've been thinking about TF34 and what the compliment of ships would be. Clearly "anything that can float and make it back and forth across a late autumn Atlantic Ocean" would be a qualifier, but just for fun I looked at what military vessels might be pressed in to service.

This might dovetail into my "Proceedings for December 2000" I may write one of these days, but for now, bear with me.

First of all, we have the USS John Hancock, DD981. Assuming she made it this far into the war by dint of able crew and captain and not that she was laid up somewhere due to massive damage, then pressed into service in the last for TF34/OpOrd Omega, she ships with 19 officers and 315 crew. The fighting spaces on a ship are tight, so I doubt if any personnel who responded to OpOrd Omega will be on board, save for possibly newborn infants in the sickbay and high-ranking officers.

The weapon compliment for the ship is as follows:

2 x 5 in (127 mm) 54 calibre Mark 45 dual purpose guns
2 x 20 mm Phalanx CIWS Mark 15 guns
1 x 8 cell ASROC launcher (removed)
1 x 8 cell NATO Sea Sparrow Mark 29 missile launcher
2 x quadruple Harpoon missile canisters
2 x Mark 32 triple 12.75 in (324 mm) torpedo tubes (Mk 46 torpedoes)
1 x 61 cell Mk 41 VLS launcher for Tomahawk missiles

The Tomahawk cells may be empty at this stage in the war; hell all of the missile tubes may be empty. But I can't imagine they'd be out of 5in or 20mm.

I thought about what the Navy might be scraping the barrel to put afloat in 2000, and cast my thought back to WWII (or younger) reserve (non-fighting) ships. Crater-class Liberty ships still existed in the 1980s (indeed a few still exist today, in addition to two held in pristine condition as museums but we're Twilight:2000's alternate future!). Most were struck and scrapped from 1964-1974, but some (below) were returned to the Maritime Shipping Commission


Cassiopeia
Celeno
Phobos
Draco
Mintaka
Murzim
Caelum
Giansar
Alderamin
Appanoose

Each of these can carry approximately 500 troops "and vehicles", so if you delete the vehicles perhaps 1000 or so troops could be carried...?

Anyway, their armament was as follows:

• 1 × 5"/38 caliber gun
• 1 × 3"/50 caliber gun
• 2 × 40 mm guns
• 6 × 20 mm guns

and while in storage I doubt if the guns remained on, at least a few would be refitted.

However, these ships are problematic: if they are still in operable condition and wouldn't require more refitting than is feasible in a practical manner, given that using the bunker oil TF34 intends to for its trip home, the USN may want to keep them to form the backbone of a rebuilding Navy, moving relief supplies and evacuating people where the ships can reach.

Also, the ships may have been kept in storage in San Diego which I believe is a smoking crater at this time.

If they were dispersed to various shipyards, there's the question of getting them around the horn (I'm assuming the Canal got hit very hard and is unusable these days) if some were on the west coast. Possibly some were at the Navy shipyard in Jersey, but that's gone.

Ultimately I think most of the shipping is going to consist of cargo ships of various stripe that were already in Bremerhaven; I doubt the Mercedes-Benz company is going to be in any position to protest when a shitload of 1998 "S" series coupes and sedans are tossed overboard to make room for the valiant American allies.

[Legbreaker]

Something to bear in mind is that ONLY ships located in Europe will be a part of the task force. There's no way to get ships with empty fuel tanks from the US and back again, given the oil is located (presumably) somewhere around Bremerhaven.

We know USS John Hancock was the flagship of the operation, and so we can presume it would have a fairly full complement of crew (drawn from survivors of other ships to round it out as necessary). Weapons, ammunition and general repair level might not be up to prewar scratch, but as one of the few fighting ships still floating, chances are it's going to have received a substantial share of available naval resources (mostly salvaged from other more heavily damaged ships).

We also know the USS Tarawa was at least floating in Summer 2000 (Naval & Aviation handbook - the notes from the colour plate showing the Osprey). Given the Tarawa is a far more capable C3 ship than the John Hancock, it's not much of a leap to believe it's either immobilised from actions during the Marine landings in July, or (my personal belief) sunk of the Polish coast.

From the Last Submarine trilogy, we also know there's no submarines in the task force. Also, given the USS John Hancock is the flagship, it's logical that no larger warships are included. My guess is the bulk of the task force consists of civilian freighters and passenger ships (cruise liners, ferries). As a point of interest, the RMS Queen Mary was refitted for WWII and carried up to 15,000 troops at a time (holds the record of 16,082). It's peacetime capacity was 2139 passengers and 1101 crew.
Provided a similar size ship was available, it's conceivable only about a dozen ships (although more likely about 20) would be needed to transport the 40,000 members of TF34.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Something to bear in mind is that ONLY ships located in Europe will be a part of the task force. There's no way to get ships with empty fuel tanks from the US and back again, given the oil is located (presumably) somewhere around Bremerhaven.

Mm. That leaves out any of those ships then.

We know USS John Hancock was the flagship of the operation, and so we can presume it would have a fairly full complement of crew (drawn from survivors of other ships to round it out as necessary). Weapons, ammunition and general repair level might not be up to prewar scratch, but as one of the few fighting ships still floating, chances are it's going to have received a substantial share of available naval resources (mostly salvaged from other more heavily damaged ships).

We also know the USS Tarawa was at least floating in Summer 2000 (Naval & Aviation handbook - the notes from the colour plate showing the Osprey). Given the Tarawa is a far more capable C3 ship than the John Hancock, it's not much of a leap to believe it's either immobilised from actions during the Marine landings in July, or (my personal belief) sunk of the Polish coast.

From the Last Submarine trilogy, we also know there's no submarines in the task force. Also, given the USS John Hancock is the flagship, it's logical that no larger warships are included. My guess is the bulk of the task force consists of civilian freighters and passenger ships (cruise liners, ferries). As a point of interest, the RMS Queen Mary was refitted for WWII and carried up to 15,000 troops at a time (holds the record of 16,082). It's peacetime capacity was 2139 passengers and 1101 crew.
Provided a similar size ship was available, it's conceivable only about a dozen ships (although more likely about 20) would be needed to transport the 40,000 members of TF34.

While I don't want to open up the debate again about Tarawa being sunk (which sadly seems most likely, beached is the only other possibility), could it be that the Tarawa has gone into own cantonment, like units that refused the OpOrd Omega in the first place and become a 39000 ton high tech pirate ship?

[Legbreaker]

Extremely doubtful. Floating, the Tarawa is just too damn valuable to leave out of formal military hands. All sides would want to lay claim to it and you can guarantee a SF raid or two would be on the cards.
Look at the USS City of Corpus Christi and the efforts made to recover it - and it doesn't have a fraction of the capability of an amphious landing ship (even if it is nuclear powered).
If the Tarawa couldn't be reclaimed for TF34, there's a high probability in my mind it would have been sunk. It would even warrant using one of the few remaining aircraft to throw the last couple of missiles at it.
If Nato didn't finish it off, you can bet the Pact would give it a good go - having what is a essentially a light aircraft carrier/military base located just off the Vistula delta would be a totally unacceptable prospect, even if immobile. Sure it only operates VTOL and STOL aircraft, and fuel is low, but just the capability alone is a scary prospect for the Pact leadership, especially since they can't exactly attack and overrun it with tanks and infantry like a conventional airstrip.

[Rainbow Six]

Other than the Hancock, I'm not aware of any other vessel, Naval or civilian, being specifically identified as part of TF34. Personally, I'd be inclined to go along with the views already put forward, i.e. that the bulk of the fleet would be civilian vessels.

I think its almost analagous to Battlestar Galactica (or at least the original film from the 70's - I never saw the remake / reboot so don't know if it differs)...you have a lone warship escorting a ragtag civilian fleet to its destination...here the John Hancock is the Galactica.

And who knows, maybe there's a Pegasus out there somewhere...

[Canadian Army]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

I thought about what the Navy might be scraping the barrel to put afloat in 2000, and cast my thought back to WWII (or younger) reserve (non-fighting) ships. Crater-class Liberty ships still existed in the 1980s (indeed a few still exist today, in addition to two held in pristine condition as museums but we're Twilight:2000's alternate future!). Most were struck and scrapped from 1964-1974, but some (below) were returned to the Maritime Shipping Commission


Cassiopeia
Celeno
Phobos
Draco
Mintaka
Murzim
Caelum
Giansar
Alderamin
Appanoose

I checked on the Crater-class Cargo Ship using NavSource Online (http://www.navsource.org/) and I found all of the ships listed were scrapped, and I also found that out of the 63 Crater-class ships built, none would in the National Defense Reserve Fleet, because they are all scraped or destroyed. However there would be still a number of Liberty and Victory Ships available, here is a list:

Liberty ship
SS Arthur M Huddel
SS John W. Brown
SS Jeremiah O'Brien

Victory ship
SS American Victory (Tampa, Florida)
SS Lane Victory (Los Angeles, California)
SS Red Oak Victory (Richmond, California)
SS Earlham Victory (Brownsville, Texas)
SS Pan American Victory (Brownsville, Texas)
SS Rider Victory (Brownsville, Texas)
SS Winthrop Victory (Brownsville, Texas)

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

I think its almost analagous to Battlestar Galactica (or at least the original film from the 70's - I never saw the remake / reboot so don't know if it differs)...

The remake is actually pretty good in the first couple of seasons at least. You really get the feeling of desperation from the survivors and the shoelaces and chewing gum holding everything together shows through nicely too.

[rcaf_777]

I think any craft that would foat and make the trip could go, like the durring the evac at Dunkirk, there about 65 major seaports on the eastern US alone plenty of places to find ships and fuel, I mean the Soviets could'nt nuke them all, heck it sounds like good adventure

Twilight 2000 V2 did a adventure along theses line in Bangkok Cesspool of the Orient in which character are trying to get rid out a group on pirates living in an old LST

[Legbreaker]

So if there's all these ships over on the US east coast and there's all this fuel just laying about, why isn't it being used already?
As previously stated, common sense dictates that only ships in the Baltic/North Sea region would have been available for the evacuation, and even then, bringing some of them in would have been a major undertaking - laid up for the last couple of years without fuel, maintenance, or crew.

The vast majority of shipping used post 1997 would be either wind powered, or small and relatively efficient fuel burners in comparison to larger vessels capable of an Atlantic crossing. Maintenance on these larger vessels would have been virtually non-existant - why would you bother if the crews are better used on smaller fishing boats or coastal cargo haulers. These large and essentially useless vessels simply don't warrant any expenditure of valuable and scarce resources to keep them seaworthy.

My guess is the larger ships would be tied up to the dock where their fuel ran out, or towed out of the way and anchored. With storms, nukes, stray torpedoes, mines and all the other dangers, it isn't likely many would be left in sailing condition.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

So if there's all these ships over on the US east coast and there's all this fuel just laying about, why isn't it being used already?

A couple of months back I posted the list of USN ships operating between Norfolk and NYC during the early months of 2001, immediately following the arrival at Norfolk of TF34, as published in the GDW mini-module A Rock in Troubled Waters. It doesn't specifically state which of those vessels was already stationed on the US east coast and which arrived with TF34. Therefore, at the discretion of each individual GM, any or all of those vessels (although obviously only the ones capable of a trans-Atlantic crossing) may have been part of TF34.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

The remake is actually pretty good in the first couple of seasons at least. You really get the feeling of desperation from the survivors and the shoelaces and chewing gum holding everything together shows through nicely too.

It gets more profound as the series winds down; mid series (seasons #2 and #3) things are practically going well for the refugees.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

So if there's all these ships over on the US east coast and there's all this fuel just laying about, why isn't it being used already?

I didn't say there was; I was putting it out there as a possibility. Also, the fuel for a crossing might be held as strategic reserve for just such an eventuality, or a final ReForGer, or something along those lines.

However, as was pointed out, the shipping came from German ports anyway, so it's a non-issue.

[Targan]

Here is the link to my previous post listing the USN assets detailed in A Rock in Troubled Waters:
http://forum.juhlin.com/showpost.php...3&postcount=23
Raketenjagdpanzer, there are some other excellent posts in that thread by other members here which may also be of value to your TF34 musings.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

I didn't say there was; I was putting it out there as a possibility. Also, the fuel for a crossing might be held as strategic reserve for just such an eventuality, or a final ReForGer, or something along those lines.

However, as was pointed out, the shipping came from German ports anyway, so it's a non-issue.

I'm going from memory here, but didn't reinforcements of sorts (mainly USAR Light Divisions) sail from the US to Europe in either late 1998 or sometime in 1999 - Civgov to Yugoslavia and Milgov to Germany?

If that's the case then not impossible that there was only enough fuel available at the time for these ships to only make a one way journey and some of them could now return to the US as part of TF34?

Just a thought...

[Legbreaker]

Something else to keep in mind is just because ships are available, doesn't mean they'll be allowed to be used by their owners. What about all the other nations involved and how are they going to feel about the US grabbing every last bathtub able to float across the Atlantic? Image how Britain for example would react to seeing "their" ships being rounded up by the remnants of the US navy and sailing off into the sunset!

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Something else to keep in mind is just because ships are available, doesn't mean they'll be allowed to be used by their owners. What about all the other nations involved and how are they going to feel about the US grabbing every last bathtub able to float across the Atlantic? Image how Britain for example would react to seeing "their" ships being rounded up by the remnants of the US navy and sailing off into the sunset!

That's a good point. I presume the Germans must have signed off on the idea of some of their remaining merchant fleet going on what was a one way journey to the US (it was stated that the oil would burn out the ships' engines wasn't it?) as part of the deal.

However it also supports the theory that if there are any US ships sitting tied up at Bremerhaven after bringing over reinforcements in 1999 they would be incorporated into TF34.

[Canadian Army]

Just to keep the debate going here are some ship that could be used:

USS Oriskany (CV/CVA-34), an Essex-class aircraft carrier.

NS Savannah, the first nuclear-powered cargo-passenger ship.

USTS Empire State V, Training ship for the State University of New York Maritime College until 1990.

USS Sequoia, the former United States presidential yacht.

MS Pacific Princess, a cruise ship owned and operated by Princess Cruises.

USS Range Sentinel (AGM-22), a missile range instrumentation ship.

SS John W. Brown, one of two still operational Liberty ships.

USCGC Eagle (WIX-327), a barque used as a training cutter for the United States Coast Guard.

Delaware II, a fishery and marine resource research ship of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.

RV Laurence M. Gould, an icebreaker used by researchers from the United States' National Science Foundation.

USS Sanctuary (AH-17), a Haven-class hospital ship that served in the U.S. Navy in World War II and the Vietnam War.

SS Wild Goose; John Wayne's former yacht

USS Potomac (AG-25), formerly the USCGC Electra, Franklin Delano Roosevelt’s presidential yacht from 1936 until his death in 1945.

USS Joseph P. Kennedy, Jr. (DD-850); a Gearing-class destroyer of the United States Navy.

USS Salem (CA-139); a Des Moines-class heavy cruiser of the United States Navy.

[simonmark6]

The Eagle is mentioned in the Challenger articles, but actually it's based in Nantucket back in the Bronze Ages.

I hadn't thought about the last replacements to come from the US, it was a few Light Divisions that could feasibly have been brought over on a couple or three Cruise Ships. They might well have been stranded in Europe if fuel was low, it's a good idea.

[Cdnwolf]

From Gateway to the Spanish Main.... maybe the USS Constitution was to be part of the taskforce but something delayed her...

From Western Europe (Going Home): The players just missed
Task Force 34 and found themselves on a bleak North Sea beach
on the morning of November 16, 2000, when an antique sailing
ship emerged from the fog and dropped anchor off shore.
It may not be the QEII, but the characters were a day late and
a dollar short, and it is sailing in the right direction.

[Canadian Army]

Originally Posted by simonmark6

The Eagle is mentioned in the Challenger articles, but actually it's based in Nantucket back in the Bronze Ages.

I read the Nantucket series too.

[Legbreaker]

I just had a thought on the whole TF34 thing.
Why would the Germans give up all that oil before the US troops were loaded up and all that lovely heavy equipment and supplies handed over?
Sure they might give the US a trickle of fuel so they can carry out vital logistic tasks such as gather the ships together and generate the necessary power, but I'm sure as hell they won't be allowing the ships to fuel up more than a thimbleful any sooner than they absolutely had to.

If the fuel was released earlier, what's to stop the US from simply reneging on their deal and loading up as much as they can squeeze into their ships and sailing off into the sunset?

[atiff]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

I just had a thought on the whole TF34 thing.
Why would the Germans give up all that oil before the US troops were loaded up and all that lovely heavy equipment and supplies handed over?
Sure they might give the US a trickle of fuel so they can carry out vital logistic tasks such as gather the ships together and generate the necessary power, but I'm sure as hell they won't be allowing the ships to fuel up more than a thimbleful any sooner than they absolutely had to.

If the fuel was released earlier, what's to stop the US from simply reneging on their deal and loading up as much as they can squeeze into their ships and sailing off into the sunset?

Then again, as the Germans, why would you turn over the fuel after the Americans have given you all their gear and put themselves into a nice, tight, easy-to-Fireball group?

Oh, sorry, wrong game

[Legbreaker]

50,000 US servicemen, even with only personal weapons and stiffened with Military Police AFVs are still likely to be a little more than a speed bump to the Germans if they decide on a double cross....

On the other hand, one nuke should just about do the job.

It may be that fuel is handed over in stages. For every "X" tonnes of military vehicles and stores, the Germans hand over "Y" tonnes of oil.

The main point is that there is no way if I were the German command that I'd be simply handing over the oil tanker and hoping the Americans keep their word. May be allies, but it's several years after global nuclear holocaust and my so called allies are (from some points of view) deserting the cause like rats off a sinking ship.

[Webstral]

Well, there's this whole thing about alliances, fighting together under the nuclear shadow, etc. Maybe there just comes a point at which being a blue falcon doesn't make as much sense as carrying through on a deal. The Germans did start WW3, and the US did back them up, and the US did play the nuclear game when at any point the Americans could have decided that they could have taken their ball and gone home. Maybe the Germans who are still in command are the kinds of folks to whom that sort of thing means more than a tanker full of unrefined oil.

[Legbreaker]

You're probably right, but the tanker is still an amazingly valuable resource. The Germans might not be looking to do a double cross, but on the other hand, from their perspective, what's to stop the Americans if the fuel was handed over too early?
It's not like the Americans have to live with the consequences - they're about to sail halfway around the world and will probably have nothing further to do with Europe for a generation or two.

Meanwhile of course there's those US units staying behind, but the assumption in the planning stages had to always be the US were aiming for a 100% withdrawal.

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

You're probably right, but the tanker is still an amazingly valuable resource. The Germans might not be looking to do a double cross, but on the other hand, from their perspective, what's to stop the Americans if the fuel was handed over too early?

Lack of space becomes the German guarantee that the Americans will leave their heavy gear. A comparison between the shipping carrying the Americans to Virginia and the requirements for heavy gear should satisfy the Germans that the tanks, guns, and other heavy equipment will stay in Germany.

[Legbreaker]

Even so, it's just plain bad practise to hand over payment prior to receiving the goods.
As an example, if you were buying a new luxury car, would you really hand over every last dollar weeks before even laying eyes on it? No, you'd probably only go as far as laying down a deposit and hand over the rest of the cash when you got the keys.
The same logic applies to the oil and the German shipping (page three again - NO mention of US ships involved besides the USS John Hancock). The Germans aren't stupid. They're sure to retain absolute control of the resources involved until they've got what they're paying for.

One other point is that until the last week or so, nobody is likely to know just how many people will be boarding the ships, and it's also likely that involvement of a few ships remains uncertain (ongoing repairs, etc). With that uncertainty, the Americans could manage to slip in half a dozen tanks, a truckload of electronics, ten tonnes of valuable medical supplies and so forth - the Germans would be doing everything in their power to prevent that.

My belief as previously indicated is the Germans would only part with a minimal amount of oil necessary for getting the ships to the point of ready for departure. An inspection would then be carried out by Germans and the ship would be allowed to move to the fuel point to fill it's tanks. This may well mean the passengers are cooped up aboard ship another couple of days, but at least they've got a roof over their heads, food supplied, nobody shooting at them, and they're on the way home.

[Webstral]

Fine. So the Germans take some steps to make sure they get what was promised. Maybe they even have a few of their own people at the docks to watch what goes on the ships. Maybe the stevedores are all German nationals reporting to the Army. One does not roll a tank up the gangplank of a passenger ship, after all. I don’t really see what the big deal is.

[Rainbow Six]

Something has just occurred to me.

I don't have a copy of Going Home immediately to had, so am going from memory, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, however isn't it kinda assumed that that this was a one way trip?

If that is the case and we agree that with the exeption of the USS John Hancock the majority (if not all) of the TF34 Fleet is made up of German merchant ships, I'm thinking there might be a problem finding crews for these ships? How many German sailors are going to be happy to sign up for a one way ticket to North America? Or do we assume that there are enough US and Canadian sailors stuck in Germany to form skeleton crews? Or are we back with the theory that TF34 includes a number of US ships that have been stuck in Bremerhaven since the reinforcements arrived in 1999?

just a passing thought...

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Something has just occurred to me.

I don't have a copy of Going Home immediately to had, so am going from memory, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, however isn't it kinda assumed that that this was a one way trip?

If that is the case and we agree that with the exeption of the USS John Hancock the majority (if not all) of the TF34 Fleet is made up of German merchant ships, I'm thinking there might be a problem finding crews for these ships? How many German sailors are going to be happy to sign up for a one way ticket to North America? Or do we assume that there are enough US and Canadian sailors stuck in Germany to form skeleton crews? Or are we back with the theory that TF34 includes a number of US ships that have been stuck in Bremerhaven since the reinforcements arrived in 1999?

just a passing thought...

Some German merchant sailors may be completely dispossessed: home was nuked out of existence, so a one-way trip to America where things maybe aren't so bad (relatively) might be more appealing than staying home.

Could be that there's a lot of sailors who've been shore security for a few years itching to get back in water even if it's one last time. I'm sure that there's probably a few fleet officers that feel that way.

Failing any of that, John Hancock could have brought over a compliment of US sailors from the 'States just for the operation. I think a few hundred would do the job nicely (if that many - I'm not up on how big cargo ships operate). This assumes Hancock had to come from the US. If it came from the UK there might have been a transferral of US Navy personnel from there; this is their shot at going home too...