The loss of modern infantry weapons

[kalos72]

So I was thinking last night about refitting a few militia units in my campaign and realized something. What do I arm them with?

I haven't really thought much about it but since there are no more factories running 1000's of M16 off the line, do you think there are enough of them floating around? I mean how many M16's could I reasonably buy from NYC?

Armies of the Night for example has the M!6 as 'common' at $600 per. Does that mean I can go there every day and possibly buy one?

Or am I looking too deeply into the mechanics of the game versus just some assumed "artistic freedoms"?

And that leads me into my next question...What parts of the M16 would a T2k world be able to produce?

Seems most of the parts are either aluminum or steel, which could be smelted from steel ibeams or rebar I guess. Could the receiver be steel too? And I guess we could use wood stocks to replace the plastics, making the weapon heavier of course.

Can you melt the receivers/barrels from civilian weapons to reform an M16 receiver? Or perhaps re-chamber a civilian rifle to a 7.62 or 5.56?

[fightingflamingo]

I would say manufacturing new modern firearms in the T2K post war environment is generally going to be two complex for most (nearly all) enclaves you'd find anywhere. The V1 Small Arms guide addresses this particular issue somewhat with the M16EZ.

However, don't forget the number of firearms generally available in the United States, so a variety of AR15's or Mini-14's may be a good choice as they are not uncommon, SKS's and AK-clones are also possible, going up to the far less common M1A's, but the vast bulk of these weapons will be bolt action hunting rifles. The US government holds large stocks of M1's which in my campaigns I have the Feds supplying to the states for use in their local militia's and state defense forces, which by 2000 could wind up in the hands of many local militia's as central control breaks down and these forces disentegrate.

[kalos72]

Thats true about the shear number of pistols/rifles/shotguns in the US today, but after a point, the more modern military weapons will need replacement parts or even be worn past the point of repair. What then?

How does the a states militia arm itself? I have seen post where some militias are listed with 4-5000 men. Surely each state doesnt have a stockpile of M1's in those numbers no?

So my thinking is if we can repair nuclear power plants, reload ammunition from base chemicals, I am sure we can use a lathe to pump out some , perhaps inferior to prewar production, replacement parts. IE "Rifle River".

But if not, surely a 4000 militia isnt gonna want to arm itself with a dozen different weapons, carrying a dozen different caliber ammo or have to reload a dozen different types of ammo either.

Long term - would modern military weapons survive or would larger forces start to resort back to more medieval warfare and such?

[fightingflamingo]

the US government maintained hundreds of thousands of M1's as part of it's war reserve.

[kalos72]

Does anyone know where? Perhaps that a whole new adventure then...

I was reading up on the M1 and it seems to be a rather simple rifle to produce considering its era. Steel and walnut...

Is there much of a difference in the 30.06 and 7.62 Nato?

[headquarters]

I agree with those who say that the stockpiles of M1 30-06 rifles, M-14 .308s ,Us Carbines etc + various smgs and lmgs are substantial in the US.

They probably have stockpiles of M16s too.

This is in addition to all the tens of thousands of AR15 type civillian weapons and tons of spare parts out there .In a major city that has bylaws that allow firearms - I am pretty sure I could get myself relatively well armed by rummaging through a few FedEx/UPS /carrier services centers.

But if none of it is available - and you have an organization that can spare food to run a simple weapons program - SMGs can be made by hand and simple power tools and plumbing supplies.Look at the pakistani tribal areas-they make al sorts there -much of it with hand tools.

I never did buy the m16ez .To close tolerances in the ar family for that too work well -unless entirely made of regulation /factory spare parts

The Poles built SMGs in the woods using parts brought in on bicycle with little or no tools during WWII.
Many small workshops made Stenguns in nazi occupied Europe and other smgs too.

Going improvised is an option - if you like the idea.

[kalos72]

So do you think I am over thinking the problem of arming a few thousand militiaman with a decent, standardized, combat rifle?

[Webstral]

Kalos, I don't think you are overthinking the problem at all. You have to set your own standard for realism. I encourage you to think through the most important aspects of arming a militia.

The real killer for assault rifles after the nuclear exchange isn't going to be over-use. The real killer is going to be neglect and other types of improper maintenance. Even on Manhattan, owners of M16 type rifles aren't going to be firing a magazine of ammunition every day. In most locations, the rifles may go weeks without being discharged. This isn't to say that some rifles won't wear out from overuse. However, the need to conserve ammunition will prompt the most heavy users of assault rifles in CONUS to emphasize good rifle marksmanship over spray-and-pray. Again, there will be those who empty magazines to no effect; but they won't last long. By 2000, pretty much all of the assault rifle users will have figured out the mismatch between the rifle's ability to fire ammunition and the local ability to replace it.

Regular, disciplined maintenance of firearms will be a serious issue in 2000. Rust happens. For the M16 family, diligent maintenance is a must.

I try to avoid allowing the information contained in a module to override my common sense. In the case of M16s in New York, a working M16 is going to be worth a lot. Its high magazine capacity, low recoil, and emphasis on use against targets at ranges closer than 400 meters make it a good weapon for the urban jungle of Manhattan. Close quarters combat will feature prominently in the tactics of the so-called armies of the night. The M16 has an excellent mix of features for offsetting the potential advantage of the gangs' inclination to mass, move under cover, and assault in numbers as a means of negating the defenders' fire. In other words, what M16s are available are going to be prized possessions. Some explanation ought to be offered for why a working M16 is being sold by anybody. Equipping a unit of any size with M16s deserves some explanation. I commend you for putting some thought into your work.

Webstral

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by kalos72

So do you think I am over thinking the problem of arming a few thousand militiaman with a decent, standardized, combat rifle?

not at all .It gives the campaign credibility if details like this has been thought through .

[Legbreaker]

With regard to the availability ratings, they should be used as a reflection on how many of a certain item are in the area, but not how many are actually available for purchase. Remember, theft/scrounging happens and this is where the availability ratings really become important.

As far as producing quality weapons, that's just not going to happen in 2000-2001 unless you're sitting on top of a prewar weapon and/or munitions factory. Even then you still need to power it and supply the materials to produce any really significant quantities.

From say 1998 through to around 2010, I'd have to say most weapons arming militia groups will be prewar civilian weapons with a sprinkling of military weapons "found" laying about somewhere. There is also likely to be a high percentage of more primative weapons - bows, crossbows, slingshots, etc. Depending on resources, some of the more simple firearms may also be produced as previously mentioned - basic SMGs, single shot rifles and shotguns, and so on.

Once the society gets itself back on it's feet a bit and industry can be reestablished, then production of more advanced weapons and ammo can take place.

I see a period from roughly 2-3 years after the nukes through to the beginning of advanced production where weapon numbers will far oustrip ammo supply - each rifle might be down to just a handful of rounds and so most combat will be with the bows, etc.

[Abbott Shaull]

Stamped sub-machineguns would be the easiest thing to mass produce on the limited basis. Considering Oldsmobile plants that made light fixtures were used to make M3 Sub-machineguns.

The hard part would be to get the material for production. One has to remember there several varieties that one could go with.

AK family had several stamp parts.

After that it would be limited production of weapons. Gun smith in a community would be commodity that a one wouldn't want to let them go. Apprenticeship with them would be sought after too.

Leg does bring up a good point. Not much sense producing weapons if you don't have supply of ammo.

One might even see local militia using old black powder weapons too. Seeing a unit lining up facing an enemy that they 'know' don't have more advance weapons in their inventory. There was a reason why they included rules for bows and crossbows in the game......

[Legbreaker]

Don't forget oversized tripod mounted crossbows for checkpoints and guard houses. They don't fire often, but should make a significantly large mess of softskin vehicles.
If you're feeling really keen, strap an explosive charge of some type on the missile with an impact detonator. That should mess up most APCs although I don't know how safe it would be to fire....

[kalos72]

I like the explosive crossbow bolt idea alot actually...

I would think you could run the mass of a militias force with more primitive weapons, perhaps even limiting the firearms to a "weapons platoon" or something. Leaving a mechanized reaction force equipped with military style weaponry to deal with bigger threats. Plus you would still have simple mortars for indirect fire support.

Or even just keep the militias as part of internal security freeing the more advanced weaponry for the less secure areas of your area.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I tend to basically agree with most thoughts here. I think you would see the most skilled shooters given the better quality military or civilian firearms because they could make the most impact with them and the militias main body would be equipped with whatever they could bring or find.

You may have one platoon equipped with hunting rifles and shotguns and another with military rifles simply out of necessity although I do very much agree that ammunition will be the real deciding factor - why give some nervous kid just recruited into the militia a semi-automatic rifle when you could give him a single shot bolt-action (that way you teach him to make each shot count)

You could even have special units with bows as their main weapon with rifles as a backup.The benefit of the bow and arrow is it's relatively quiet and you can sometimes recover your ammo. You form some people into a stealthy unit to sneak into range on the flanks of the bad guys, pepper them with arrows for a minute or so then they pull back. This can be very demoralizing and you've not had to waste many if any hard to replace bullets.

[Slappy]

As for the specific point on cost and availability in the module, here's my take.

Common: I'd say that it would be common to find one at a street market, maybe two. Some weeks there will be none, sometimes as many as a dozen from several sellers if someone has recently found a cache. The condition of the items may vary. Some will be in good shape, some nearly unusable due to poor maintenance or overuse. I don't think that it would be possible to buy more than a few without eating up the available supply. The market just isn't that deep. No one is sitting on crates and crates waiting for a wholesale deal. They would have already made one with the Mayor or another militia.

$600: This is the usual price and it's fairly expensive. I don't have my referencs, but that is the equivalent of something like 100 liters of ethanol or 200 kg of food, enough to feed someone for a month or two if I remember. Not that many people have that sort of cash. These sales would be fairly rare. That's why the market isn't that deep. There aren't that many qualified buyers. The resources required to buy 20 M-16s and hundreds of rounds of ammo are only available to a handful of people on the island. If you wanted more M-16s, expect the price to climb steeply after the first couple.

C / $600 is a perfectly reasonable assingment, just don't expect to go back to that well too often.

[weswood]

You could also use a catapult or small trebuchet for indirect fire weapons at strongpoints. A small keg of gunpowder or burning pitch could ruin someone's day.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by kalos72

I like the explosive crossbow bolt idea alot actually...

Just be aware that there's unlikely to be any safety mechanism on these munitions. Once the fuse/deonator has been installed, the slightest touch could potentially be fatal. Also, depending one what's being used, the shock of firing might be enough to detonate....

It's an assignment that would very quickly be seen as a death sentence by many.

Depending on the skill of the gunsmith or mechanic involved, they might be made a bit safer. Where penetration isn't necessary, hand grenades could be used as the explosive, with the pin pulled before firing and the grenade breaking loose of it's "launch platform" on striking the target, thereby releasing the lever.

As mentioned in Airlords of the Ozarks, grenades in glass jars could be useful too - put a handful in a catapult instead of dropping them from above.

[kalos72]

Imagine an M3 chambered for a 5.56Nato round...

[Targan]

Originally Posted by kalos72

Imagine an M3 chambered for a 5.56Nato round...

I can't. For many reasons such a conversion wouldn't be possible. Or rather, you would have to re-work almost every major component of the weapon so there would be little if any of the original weapon left. The M3 is a blowback operated weapon firing from an open bolt. It fires a .45 pistol round. I'm happy to be corrected but I don't know of any 5.56mm weapons that use a blowback, open bolt system. You'd have to massively reinforce the whole receiver. Then there is the magazine well and the mags. And that tiny length, narrow barrel would have to be replaced with a much heavier barrel to avoid it rupturing and probably much longer one (or be prepared for a really fearsome muzzle flash). I'm sure others can think of even more problems with a 5.56 conversion for the M3.

[kalos72]

Targan - You seem to know alot about the physical aspects of the weapons, could you make an M16 out of recycled/smelted steel given a good machine shop and skill?

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Don't forget oversized tripod mounted crossbows for checkpoints and guard houses. They don't fire often, but should make a significantly large mess of softskin vehicles.
If you're feeling really keen, strap an explosive charge of some type on the missile with an impact detonator. That should mess up most APCs although I don't know how safe it would be to fire....

Abso-wuckin-lutely. As many of you know I've played a great deal of Harnmaster, a highly realistic, low-fantasy RPG set in medieval times. In that game heavy crossbows and particularly arbalests ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbalest ) are weapons to be truly feared, even by the most heavily armored knights. You generally need a hand crank or other mechanical device to load them so their rate of fire is low but if they hit you're steaming meat, real fast. An arbalest bolt would punch right through a car door and probably also the opposite door too.

[pmulcahy11b]

It's not too accurate, but a catapult or trebuchet might make a good mortar substitute, especially with a flaming payload. Several large rocks in one load might make a good substitute for ICM. Or better yet, a load of grenades.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by kalos72

Targan - You seem to know alot about the physical aspects of the weapons, could you make an M16 out of recycled/smelted steel given a good machine shop and skill?

In theory you could but it would be pretty difficult. You'd need one or more gunsmiths who would not only need to be highly skilled at their trade but also intimately familiar with every tiny aspect of the M-16. Trying to perfectly replicate every component would be a nightmare. Some components would need very specific types of materials (particular grades of hardened steel for instance). The receiver of an M16 is made from aluminium alloy so you can forget about producing those, you'd have to fabricate steel versions instead. That would change a number of characteristics of the weapon (cooling, weight etc).

Seriously, if you have an expert gunsmith and a really well equipped machine shop you'd be much better off choosing a much simpler weapon to copy and produce (I'm thinking one of the many WWII SMGs that were produced using stamped components for instance).

A major factor in what weapon to choose to manufacture would be what ammo do you have the most of (or what ammo can you reload/produce yourself). If you can't practically reload or manufacture sufficient quantities of decent quality, modern, smokeless powder ammo your only choice would be to produce black powder weapons. On the plus side a skilled weaponsmith with a good machine shop could really churn out large numbers of black powder weapons in a short period of time.

I admit that producing good quality brass cases might be a problem but take a look at these weapons ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_Model_1873 ) ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_Model_1892 ) as examples of black powder firearms. That's a big fat 44-40 Winchester bullet and assuming you can hit your target its going to do some real damage even at quite long ranges. Older weapons used other materials including cardboard to make black powder cartridges. If you want to go for a really simple weapon you could even produce muskets. Unfortunately though they are slow to load and not very accurate. If you've reached that point you'd may as well produce some kick-arse heavy crossbows using flat truck springs for the arms.

[kalos72]

What about this...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_Model_1894

[Targan]

Originally Posted by kalos72

What about this...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_Model_1894

Great rifle but it uses smokeless powder cartridges. Smokeless powder is more difficult to manufacture than black powder. I was using the Winchester 1873 and 1892 as examples because they are black powder weapons.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

It's not too accurate, but a catapult or trebuchet might make a good mortar substitute, especially with a flaming payload. Several large rocks in one load might make a good substitute for ICM. Or better yet, a load of grenades.

Ooh, I like the grenades idea. But how to detonate them? Tape them around a primer charge with some kind of impact fuze? You'd really want to avoid them exploding before they leave the weapon.

[Targan]

Kalos, perhaps these old threads might contain information useful to you:

Improvised Ammunition = http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=13

Ammo Reloading = http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=600 (you'll probably remember this thread as you started it )

Can anyone remember other threads that might be useful?

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Targan

Ooh, I like the grenades idea. But how to detonate them? Tape them around a primer charge with some kind of impact fuze? You'd really want to avoid them exploding before they leave the weapon.

Maybe futz with the fuzes -- remember that batch of fuzes for F-1 grenades that US special ops troops found in Lebanon in the 1980s? They had delays ranging from 0-13 seconds (depending on the fuze).

[jester]

I would think something along the lines of a Mini 14 or a AR 18 would work better than going for a M16, the Mini 14 is forged with a basic Garand style action which is simple, rialable and durable.

Or the AR-18 which is cool, alot of it is a stamped reciever again simple to make with less resources.

I would use a gas system similiar to a M14 or a FN/FAL to deal with the varied powder.

As for the catapult, just load it with a basked full of fist sized rocks so when it flies the rocks fill the sky and land. On massed troop formations it will do damage and break bones.

As for grenades, fulminate of mercury <like in caps> can be the detonator, make the "grenades" into dart like shapes with a weighted end where your "cap" igniter is thus setting the bomb off.

Another option, regular grenades in a jar or even a can with the top cut off, pull the pins, let the jar or can hold the lever down. When the thing flies it will come loose and well you will have a good number of airburst explosions <more effective than impact for troops> or when they hit the ground the jar breacks, letting the lever fly or is tossed from the can again letting the spoon fly, end result lots of explosions.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by jester

As for grenades, fulminate of mercury <like in caps> can be the detonator, make the "grenades" into dart like shapes with a weighted end where your "cap" igniter is thus setting the bomb off.

I like this. It would be easy to attach some kind of tail to a grenade to make the end with the impact fuze hit the ground first.

Originally Posted by jester

Another option, regular grenades in a jar or even a can with the top cut off, pull the pins, let the jar or can hold the lever down. When the thing flies it will come loose and well you will have a good number of airburst explosions <more effective than impact for troops> or when they hit the ground the jar breacks, letting the lever fly or is tossed from the can again letting the spoon fly, end result lots of explosions.

They use that very method in Airlords of the Ozarks. It is a clever idea.

Edit: Legbreaker already pointed out the Airlords of the Ozards connection.