Alternatively Armed Armies

[Mohoender]

Have you ever used a crossbow? I did for several years and still have one at home (in bad shape). There is plenty of truth it what you all say but you forget a lot of things. Of course, if you can get your hand on a full load of modern types, I'll take them but from what I read, I assumed that was not the case (actually, you'll find much more modrn bows around).

First, a crossbow is relatively heavy. Don't forget that fiberglass is not available any more. Then, you have to go with wood and steel for the mechanism. You end up with something which is heavier than a regular rifle and that you use more like a light machine gun.

Crossbow are also fairly tricky to make unless you go for very simple type with a barrel, a light bow and a small hold to maintain the string in place (then, you end-up with less kinetic power than with a bow, and much reduced range). Otherwise, you need to have a skilled man to make them. The quarrels are also more tricky to make than arrows. Bows are easier to make, and you can start with simple models. When your bow maker gets better he can make you long bows and finally the small highly maneuverable type used by mongols (almost a light machine gun).

I agree that you need less training but some people use bows from instinct. Just select the good guys and train them (arrows are easy to make). I also remind you that the british archers who decimated the french chivalry were lightly trained peasants.

Have you ever tried to bend a crossbow? First it takes time. Then, it takes a lot of strength, even for the smallest modern ones. If you have to make ones using woods, you'll end up with something that can't be bent without mechanical device. I'll leave you the crossbows and take the swords, axes, spears and morning stars (Banzaï). With bows, you can train women and children to use them while the men wait for the shock.

Last and not the least important. bows can achieve indirect fire at a range of more than 200 yards. Therefore, I'll position my archers behind the walls (in second line) and fire arrows at you before you even can see me (not very accurate but I have plenty of supply and I'll clear your ranks). With crossbows you'll be using direct fire and your crew will be more exposed. In addition, with a bow I'll be able to fire 4-5 times before the ennemy get to my footmen (then they can continue to fire in direct support) while the crossbow will fire twice at most (In support of those same footmen your corssbowmen can do little because their weapon is too heavy and bulky and, then, your crews are killed trying to bend it once more).

Actually, ideally, I would use both weapons. Bows as regular second line, used in fair concentration. Crossbows (exactly as described) as support weapons provided I can fire them from cover (the shield is a fun idea). I leave my footmen in first line waiting for the shock.

Why do you think crossbows never supplanted bows IRL?

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

Why do you think crossbows never supplanted bows IRL?

Rate of fire. The rate of fire of the longbow was not surpassed until the advent of the repeating rifle.

Webstral

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

I agree that you need less training but some people use bows from instinct. Just select the good guys and train them (arrows are easy to make). I also remind you that the british archers who decimated the french chivalry were lightly trained peasants.

I have to correct you here. Yes the English longbowmen were peasants but they weren't your typical bonded serfs, they were for the most part a class of freeman called a yoeman. Yoemen weren't owned by their feudal lord like serfs were, they rented land from their lord and paid some or even most of their rent through military service. That military service was highly valued because yoemen were actually quite highly trained, just in a specialised area - in the use of the longbow.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by Targan

I have to correct you here. Yes the English longbowmen were peasants but they weren't your typical bonded serfs, they were for the most part a class of freeman called a yoeman. Yoemen weren't owned by their fuedal lord like serfs were, they rented land from their lord and paid some or even most of their rent through military service. That military service was highly valued because yoemen were actually quite highly trained, just in a specialised area - in the use of the longbow.

I knew they were not serfs; however, I didn't knew about that training. Thanks for correcting me.

[Graebarde]

This discussion is intesting. I would favor the bow over the cross bow for simplicity, but as has been stated, it takes longer to learn/master the bow. The English archer started training at the age of five or six. By the time they were of age for war, they were pulling 100 pound plus warbows and could have three or four arrows in the air before the first struck. It will take a generation to meet that, and practice.. practice.. practice. The King decreed that yeoman archers were to practice weekly. Many shot everyday as a matter of pride, others only the minimal amounts.

Wooden self bows are relatively easy to construct with minimal tools. A decent, not a master piece, can be done in less than a day with a knife and hatchet.. add more tools like rasps, shaves, etc, and time speeds, but speed can ruin a bow before the first draw. The stave is only one aspect of the bow as well. The string is a crucial element.. duh. Linen and hemp were the prefered for longbows, though aboriginals have used sinew and rawhide as well. You can't equip a force with archers without having at least one person around that is a good boyer that can teach others to make the bow, the string and finally the arrow.. which is typically a fletcher's job.

Hardwood shafts for the arrows must be rounded and straightened. Fletching is important for accuracy as well. It's a tedious job often done in the winter months when field work is done. Arrow heads are of two distinct designs for them, though there are more. The broad point, made from iron or steel unless you're going to work stone or bone. The stainless steel spoon makes a good point with metal working. The bodkin, a chisel tip designed to pierce armor, is basically a shaft of iron/steel.

SO you have woodworkers and metalsmiths, as well as cordage makers, to make the necessary elements of the system. I could see the settlement/s with cottage industry making bows, arrows, arrowheads, and strings, as well as leatherworkers to make the greeves and quivers.

Cross bows, with modern technology, would be built with 'quick load' ratchets or cranks. Bicycle gears or some such, or jacks, providing the reloading mechanism. Those types of gearing can be fired prone and reloaded prone.

In general though with the train of thought, I think there would definately be an increase in the use of the bow, as much for hunting as anything else. They are quiet, you can reuse the ammunition (if it's not too battered or lost), and as I said, relatively easy to make. Most places, in the US at least, have at least one archer around, though many/most of the modern archers can't build a system such as discussed, as they are hooked on the modern compounds with wheels. Fine weapons until they break I might add, as a person that's has problem drawing a 65 pound self bow can draw and hold the 80 pound compound much easier.

It was mentioned the 'women and kids' would be the archers.. The draw they can use would not be much, perhaps in the 20-40 pound range, which will NOT reach the 200 yard/meter range desired with much penetration. They would be harrassing fire though.

Just some of my rambling thoughts on the subject, one which I really like.
grae

[ChalkLine]

Here we go
(Disclaimer; I study 15th century Europe at uni)

Yeomen arrived around Henry VIII when the longbow was in decline. The longbow was last used in anger at Flodden (1513) where the Scots in their 'plate'* rolled right over the longbowmen and slaughtered them. The arms/armour pendulum had swung and the armour was invulnerable to arrows. Before that you could call them 'Franklins', but really serfdom went out of use well before The Black Death in 1365 and the labour shortage removed it almost entirely.
By law most sports were banned during the longbow phase in England and peasants had to practice the bow instead, this happened every Sunday. This may sound kinda hardcore, but legislation like that was in place all over Europe. The Swiss had their crossbowmen who were frighteningly accurate, deployed off horses and rode as skirmishers. They too practice pike, halberd and crossbow every Sunday.
The reason for this training wasn't accuracy, although that was certainly a by-product, but like most military training it was endurance and team building. Archers had to be taught how to function on a battlefield, and the vast majority of rural people in Europe were not notably military minded. In fact it was a widespread view that urban troops were the best, as they had a natural cohesion because of their subculture of guild membership.

The reason bowmen were valued is that they were very, very cheap. Just like in Twilight 2000, its the guy with the most cash (logistics) who is going to win. Most wars ground to a halt because the attacker ran out of funds and couldn't pay their troops. There was no logistics system as we know it now; the logistics were handled by free agent merchants who followed the armies called 'sutlers'. If you ran out of cash they simply went home.

For example, at Agincourt the archers were armed in padded jacks (actually very, very good armour with the drawback that it deteriorated on campaign). At any one time they outnumbered the French men at arms engaging them by at least 2:1 in a defensive position (so it's tactically like 8:1). It is estimated(1) that the archers ran out of arrows very early in the battle and fought as medium infantry. These men were professional soldiers, not feudal levies, and fought campaigns for years at a time if paid.

The vast majority of significant mediaeval engagements were sieges. Here the crossbow reigned supreme. The crossbowmen would sit behind his hoarding, pavise or gabion and await his shot - the precursor to the modern sniper. Sappers had to wear massive siege armour twice as heavy as normal plate, to survive this lethal environment. Fleeting targets were the norm, and the time to draw and fire was usually too long to get a hit. In fact, most soldiers never saw a pitched battle.

The ratchet crossbow, or 'crannequin' is simple to make with rudimentary tools. All you need is a supply of seasoned wood and good steel, something both in abundance in twilight 2000. I can make you a crossbow out of a car spring in an afternoon, and the crannequin in maybe two days, given power tools. This weapon can be spanned** in the prone position, in a car or in a tree; all useful qualities where the opponent may have a modern assault rifle.
It does take some experimentation to get the crossbow right; the stock ('prod' or 'tiller') has to be a certain weight to take the recoil. Spanish troops complained that their crossbows were 'en dente'*** or 'had teeth' they kicked so hard.

Finally, a word on penetrative power.
The steel limb crannequin put out phenomenal power; enough to blow through maille armour. Around 15kg/cm. That's fucking insane power, and will penetrate any body armour the PCs wear unless it's 15th century two-stage annealed steel.
However, to whet your appetite, the espringalde box siege crossbow (about the size of a KPV machinegun) put out 1500kg/cm . . .

* 'Cap a' pie' or 'white harness'
** This is where we get the term 'spanner' from. They were used to tension crossbow limbs.
*** This, of course, isn't Spanish. I assume the chronicler wrote it in Latin.
(1) Curry, A "Agincourt, A New History" (London, 2006)

[jester]

Yes, the English archers of old trained for a LIFE TIME! Ask the French Knights at Agincourt. And it did take a lifetime as well as a national culture of bowmanship <is that a word?> They have done excavations and you could even tell who was an archer by the skeletal developement which was much more pronounced with the ridges that were the attatchement points for muscle on the side that drew the bow.

As for other weapons, I could see something akin to a speargun also being used a ranged weapon of short range but none the less a ranged weapon, and easily made. I have seen folks on the dive boats with their own homemade weapons.

Another idea could be the making of primative muzzleloading weapons. A pipe or length of barrel, with a primative trigger, or even just a hammer on a spring that is pulled and released by the thumb hitting a precussion cap which fires the weapon. I am imagining a barrel on a half wooden stock and wrapped with thin cable or wire to add to the strength of the barrel, with a wicked looking broad blade on the end, so when the weapon is fired using buckshot it is then used as a pike or polearm and club.

Another form of weapon could be a zip gun. A gun that fires a cartridge, but otherwise similiar to the weapon above. A spring fired nail that hits the cartridges primer and a primative shoulder stock. A section of pip and on the read of the pipe a endcap. I would think a pistol cartridge of shotgunshell would be the best since they are straight walled cartridges. Thus, the cannon fodder has the benefit of a psuedo firearm, they have 1 shot, then they use their weapon as a club or pike with a fixed blade or similiar mounted.

And also, lets not forget about primtive handgrenades. A simple stick greande made from an old tin can with an inner charge of blackpoweder and a primative blasting cap, then some shrapnel material, bits of metal, chain or wire and glass, then the shell of the can, a simple stick drilled out with a length of fuse and a primative igniter at the bottom of the stick handle protected by an end cap. Maybe a piece of dowel rod with metal on the end, you slap it, the dowel hits a precussion cap igniting the fuse and you throw it. Or a bit of chemicals that when mixed combust after a few seconds.

And of course slings and sling shots. Not the most accurate for a novice. But, when used en mass it will be enough to keep the baddies heads down until your people with the single shot weapons can get close enough without being mowed down and do some damage and then of course when they fire their shots they charge to get in close and use their melee weapons.

[Matt W]

Don't forget to use all options: poisoned arrows sound nasty

http://select.nytimes.com/2006/11/14...stof.html?_r=1

Or some WW1 style weapons

http://preview.tinyurl.com/n5gxzy

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by jester

As for other weapons, I could see something akin to a speargun also being used a ranged weapon of short range but none the less a ranged weapon, and easily made. I have seen folks on the dive boats with their own homemade weapons.

You make me think of a kind of rifle that could be easily made and that use to fire anything (nails, metal peaces, small stones...). The name is "Tromblon" in French (also mean an uggly looking girl). As I don't know it in english, I put an image of one.

[ChalkLine]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

You make me think of a kind of rifle that could be easily made and that use to fire anything (nails, metal peaces, small stones...). The name is "Tromblon" in French (also mean an uggly looking girl). As I don't know it in english, I put an image of one.

We called it a 'Blunderbuss' from the German 'Donderbusch', or 'Thunder Gun'.

[jester]

Yes, that is what we call a "Blunderbuss."

And that is pretty much what I was thinking when I posted the singleshot primative weapon issued to your masses.

Now, make it a large bore like the above, but not funneled. Add hammer that fires on a primer like the caplock rifles/muskets. These with todays knowledge are pretty easy, heck, they are common in childrens cap pistols so no big deal, and then mount a spike for thrusting and an axe for causing even more chaos when it comes to close quarters. Talk about the ultimate primative close quarters weapon

[headquarters]

The English longbow men were in no way lightlky trained .They had years of experience in using and maintaining the longbows.

The crossbow on teh other hand takes a lot less practice -around 3 weeks - to get sufficient proficiency .

making a longbow,a recurve bow or a composite bow takes a lot of forgotten skill when it comes to selectring and prepping the wood .

taking the leaf springs out of a disabled car -or other similar steel band and rigging them to a barrel and trigger is way easier ,provided you can salvage whatever you need.

imHo the way to go would be the crossbow,cheaper and easier to make and maintain ,easier to use and of course the tactical advantages in built up areas.
A longbow is nearly 6 feet tall and has a pull of 60 kg !You cant run around doing cqb with that -a little more so a crossbow.

Also the massed battle tactics of the hundred years wars would not apply in
T2K maybe in T2K2300 ,30 years on and a steady downward slide for humanity..

making a bow is difficult .Making something to kill small birds and rabits isnt that hard -but a war bow? A whole set of trade skills on its own.

If you start massing ranks like in the 100 years wars to achieve maximum effect from your bowmen- the guy on the the other end will have a field day with whatever firearms he has left ...

I want to add a few other suggestions:
1) slingshot .Made from a Y shaped object and whatever rubber is available .Bicycle tires,elastic bands etc .It packs a wallop when fired with leadballs and can be cheaply made and trained with .Good for hunting small game and keeping pests at bay too.
Seriously - you could easily kill a man with a headshot from one of these with a leadball at say 50 yards.

2)
blackpowder gun
be it a simple matchlock , flintlock or doglock or percusssion or electrical ignition variety - the firearm is going to have its advantages.Electrical seamless tubing or other high quality steel tubing kan be used -or in a pinch whatever plumbing supplies available.
Lead is available to be salvaged from many sources - think wheel/tire wheights etc .
Gunpowder is a bit more tricky ,but they did it 700 years ago , so I guess someone would be able to in T2K.

Also blackpowder allows for a lot more fun medieval mayhem-machines like the bombard ,mortar,hwacha,firelance and fougasse ( an old claymore mine )

Gunpowder armed ruffians could operate in a pike and shot type organization were melee fighters protect the shooters as they reload ,with someone armed with a modern gun doing overall protection .They could advance and fire and then retreat again to reload again .

For all of trhe above I have to say I believe they would work better in defensive position where you have a room to prepare and keep stores dry etc . rather then on the attack.

Originally Posted by Mohoender

Have you ever used a crossbow? I did for several years and still have one at home (in bad shape). There is plenty of truth it what you all say but you forget a lot of things. Of course, if you can get your hand on a full load of modern types, I'll take them but from what I read, I assumed that was not the case (actually, you'll find much more modrn bows around).

First, a crossbow is relatively heavy. Don't forget that fiberglass is not available any more. Then, you have to go with wood and steel for the mechanism. You end up with something which is heavier than a regular rifle and that you use more like a light machine gun.

Crossbow are also fairly tricky to make unless you go for very simple type with a barrel, a light bow and a small hold to maintain the string in place (then, you end-up with less kinetic power than with a bow, and much reduced range). Otherwise, you need to have a skilled man to make them. The quarrels are also more tricky to make than arrows. Bows are easier to make, and you can start with simple models. When your bow maker gets better he can make you long bows and finally the small highly maneuverable type used by mongols (almost a light machine gun).

I agree that you need less training but some people use bows from instinct. Just select the good guys and train them (arrows are easy to make). I also remind you that the british archers who decimated the french chivalry were lightly trained peasants.

Have you ever tried to bend a crossbow? First it takes time. Then, it takes a lot of strength, even for the smallest modern ones. If you have to make ones using woods, you'll end up with something that can't be bent without mechanical device. I'll leave you the crossbows and take the swords, axes, spears and morning stars (Banzaï). With bows, you can train women and children to use them while the men wait for the shock.

Last and not the least important. bows can achieve indirect fire at a range of more than 200 yards. Therefore, I'll position my archers behind the walls (in second line) and fire arrows at you before you even can see me (not very accurate but I have plenty of supply and I'll clear your ranks). With crossbows you'll be using direct fire and your crew will be more exposed. In addition, with a bow I'll be able to fire 4-5 times before the ennemy get to my footmen (then they can continue to fire in direct support) while the crossbow will fire twice at most (In support of those same footmen your corssbowmen can do little because their weapon is too heavy and bulky and, then, your crews are killed trying to bend it once more).

Actually, ideally, I would use both weapons. Bows as regular second line, used in fair concentration. Crossbows (exactly as described) as support weapons provided I can fire them from cover (the shield is a fun idea). I leave my footmen in first line waiting for the shock.

Why do you think crossbows never supplanted bows IRL?

[rcaf_777]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

First, a crossbow is relatively heavy. Don't forget that fiberglass is not available any more

Yes fiberglass is not available any more, but want do want to bet that there are plenty of bows and arrows still in archery stores, sport good, ect.

When shit hit the fan and people start looting I can see a lot people passing them up for shiny guns and ammo, that is unless your a bunch of high school students led by Patrick Swayze who decided to take a combine, Soviet, Cuba, Mexcian, Invasion.

[mikeo80]

I think that as WWIII drags on into 2000-2001-2002 etc, you would start to see more and more "primitive" weapons with maybe one or two "modern" weapons held in reserve.

The black powder gun would probably be one of the first "primitive" weapons developed. Along with the wooden bow, and maybe the cross bow for the first line of fighters, backed up with the "Brown Bess" musket, or if you have a gunsmith with real talent, you have either the "Kentucky" long rifle, or possibly the American Civil War "Springfield".

The way I look at it, if my "primitive" Brown Bess Musket keeps you from stealing my pigs, so what.

My $0.02

Mike

[Canadian Army]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

Yes fiberglass is not available any more, but want do want to bet that there are plenty of bows and arrows still in archery stores, sport good, etc.

For those of us who are not familiar with SCA. The SCA is the Society for Creative Anachronism (SCA) is an international living history group with the aim of studying and recreating mainly Medieval European cultures and their histories before the 17th century. Founded in 1966, the society has 60,000 participants.

In the film Zombie Apocalypse (or 2012: Zombie Apocalypse)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zombie_...pse_%28film%29 the main characters encounters a group of students armed with crossbows and compound bows, group is former college/university archery team lead by their former coach. He explains why they use bows, because they are silent and because in all the sporting goods/outdoors stores they encountered all the archery equipment were left in favour firearms.

[headquarters]

I was very sure that crossbows would be best a few years back when thi sthread started.

But after reading up on tribal conflict in Kenya in recent years - the self bow or easily produced bows seem an obvious choice. Arrows for it are made from wood and any kind of steel or hard metal found.

"IFR" is reportedly several hundred yards.

Cheap and relatively effective. Bear in mind that these work as an effective combat weapon because there are so few firearms available. That means that a group can position themselves with good lines of sight - relatively un covered.

http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Bows...s_war_999.html

other sources are available -this one came up high on the google search..

[WallShadow]

One of my Rules of Life: There are no such things as obsolete weapons or tools, merely obsolete thought in the manner of their use.
the corollary: You can get just as dead from a stone axe as from a lightsaber.

[rcaf_777]

montagnard crossbows seem easily made a used quite good for taking out sentires, ect