Alternatively Armed Armies

[Slappy]

To get back to the original question, I think arming raw civilians with either bows or crossbows would be of marginal effectiveness at best given the state of the world in most T2K campaigns.

I'm assuming that the players still have automatic weapons as do many of their adversaries. I find it doubtful that an untrained group with homemade crossbows will bring much to the party. The likelihood of doing much damage is low as is the likelihood that they will be able to stand and fight effectively. Remember, low morale and unit cohesion usually come with low training. They might actually be better off standing off with higher quality weapons. They'll probably stay in the fight longer.

Two other thoughts though. I'm not saying that a highly trained professional couldn't make useful tactical use of these weapons. An elite soldier with a crossbow is probably a better bet than a novice with an AK in close quarters. Also, these weapons should become more and more effective as technology recedes. Bowmen couldn't stand up to even primitive firearms and I don't expect they'd do very well against M249s either, but when these weapons wear out they will once again have a lot to offer. It's just that most T2K campaigns still have a higher tech level than the one at which this would be an effective strategy.

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by Slappy

To get back to the original question, I think arming raw civilians with either bows or crossbows would be of marginal effectiveness at best given the state of the world in most T2K campaigns.

I agree here. Mostly for the reasons given by Slappy.

I would say possible in some defense of the home type cases. But not offensive for sure. I especially can't imagine that people would put themselves into such a (cannon fodder) position.

[jester]

Ah yes a trained seasoned character who knows the primitive weapon would most likely be more effective than refugee armed with a primative weapon, and the refugee armed with a modern weapon would be more effective. But a trained veteran type with a modern weapon would be even further ahead and thus a force multiplier.

As for something else,

Novice types armed with primative weapons well, one needs to level the playing field.

So, slow the enemy up, force them to close so that range isn't a factor. We show alot of blunderbusses which are devestating at close range. So, build a trench or maze network where attackers need to get close, this will also channel them, so the advantage of range and accuracy is dispelled. And limit the numbers in which they can attack as well and you improve the chances of the novice defenders.

Like I said, I would build a maze of trenches leading to the blockhouse where the novices armed with primitive weapons made a stand, so the well trained well equiped attackers could not use their training and weapons to their full advantage.

[Targan]

I agree that a PC party armed with the normal plethora of high powered military weapons would slaughter a rabble armed with primitive weapons but that doesn't mean that such an engagement would be risk-free for the PCs.

When the 78th ID (Light) decided to leave NYC and got ambushed (losing the NYC gold reserves in the process) it had more to do with sheer numbers of opponents and effective use of road blocks and channelling than with the relative effectiveness of each side's weapons.

I can imagine situations where poorly armed opponents who outnumber a PC party would be willing to take their chances with a well prepared ambush and primative weapons. The potential rewards (a bunch of military weapons, ammo and equipment) would be great and if the poorly armed folks are already living in really bad conditions and have a high mortality rate anyway they really haven't got much to lose.

I've described on this forum before an occassion in my campaign where Major Po's XO, a USN SEAL officer, came within a hair's bredth of having his face shot off by a half starved teenager with a zip gun firing reloaded 12 gauge rounds stuffed full of nail heads and broken glass. The SEAL had been stalking the kid through long grass and the kid, panicked and scared into immobility, stayed perfectly still until the SEAL was less than 10 feet from him. The SEAL's body armour stopped a couple of fragments and he took a piece of glass in the cheek. A sobering moment for him I think.

[jester]

Targ;

That is my point on how to mount a defence. Force the attackers to come in at close quarters and break up their cohesion as well as limit their numbers which will reduce their effectiveness. And in the end if you have to rat through a maze while under the eye of even the greenest of folks they will be able to take a pot shot at you. And if they are using ALOT of buckshot well, they will take casualties.

Then if the stronghold is on a raised section nothing like a vault over an open area which sucks for you and gives you the same danger and chances if you are a seal or a member of the local boys chior. The risk is the same.

And the same goes if you want to STOP! Crawl to the EDGE to get a view and a shot. You will stand out, you will be a target and most likely have some lead thrown your way which is usualy an unhealthy proposition.

[WallShadow]

In the case of the Ruins of Warsaw", the good guys are short of weapons and ammo, to the extent that several companies are only partially armed or without weapons. Here is where the crossbow can come in to solve several problems at once. First, it and its ammunition can be manufactured out of materials at hand--salvaged wood, metal rods and hardware by the local metalworkers and/or the Krolowa's machine shop.. Next, it can be the weapon of choice for those lurking in the rubble to ambush the Baron's men--quietly. Further, the now-dead or surrendered Black Guardsmen or other allied troops no longer need their weapons and contribute them and their ammo to the Milicye's armory. And rumors of the whispering death get back to the Baron's troops to give them pause about what can happen outside of their safe encampment.

Another case for using bow-type weapons can be seen on old re-runs of "the Dukes of Hazzard", where one of the "Good ol' boys" can be seen wreaking destruction by loosing off a few dynamite-bearing arrows as the General Lee roars away. Without the need for exceptional accuracy, a volley of explosive arrows whishing silently in before their big Ka-Boom might be very disorienting and demoralizing, rather like a WW2 Soviet Katyusha rocket attack only without the whoosh of the rockets.

[manunancy]

Originally Posted by jester

Targ;

That is my point on how to mount a defence. Force the attackers to come in at close quarters and break up their cohesion as well as limit their numbers which will reduce their effectiveness. And in the end if you have to rat through a maze while under the eye of even the greenest of folks they will be able to take a pot shot at you. And if they are using ALOT of buckshot well, they will take casualties.

Then if the stronghold is on a raised section nothing like a vault over an open area which sucks for you and gives you the same danger and chances if you are a seal or a member of the local boys chior. The risk is the same.

And the same goes if you want to STOP! Crawl to the EDGE to get a view and a shot. You will stand out, you will be a target and most likely have some lead thrown your way which is usualy an unhealthy proposition.

Even worse here would be grenades - in that sort of trench warfare situation they get really nasty and care even less about aiming. They also have th neat feature that you can lob them over your cover without exposing yourself. Even better, inculde some inclined pipe drains sections into your earthworks to get your grenades in place without the need for even minimal throwing experience.

Here a well equiped attacker relying on grenade launchers would be be worse off as they can'tbe used at that sort of range. thoough they would probably have hand greandes of their own.

No matter what, it(s going to ne messy.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by manunancy

Here a well equipped attacker relying on grenade launchers would be be worse off as they can't be used at that sort of range.

That's where indirect fire comes into play - launch almost straight up into the air and line of sight distance doesn't matter so much with regard to arming distances.